POLL: Chris Martin

[Steve How Hard?]

10 minutes ago, McLovin said:

The likes of Davies and Vardy weren't declining though, they were getting better with age unlike Martin who simply isn't the same player. I stated this previously, he is nearly 28 but in footballing terms he is in his thirties because of his poor fitness, not necessarily his fault though because genetics plays a huge part.  Rooney's exactly the same, he is 30 but in footballing terms he is about 35 which is why he is struggling a lot more than other plays his age. Whilst some may think it was a good thing that Martin came a few weeks early into a pre season as it showed motivation, the fact that he had to come that early tells me that he knows himself he is coming to the end of his career in terms of peak performances so had to do the extra work that he has never previously done in order to sustain a reasonable physical condition. On the last part, Fulham are playing exactly his strengths and have quick runners up and around him but he has still looked terrible. Even last season when Wassall came in he didn't look like the player he was a few years before. Of course he had the odd good game like against Hull in the 4-0 win but these good performances will slowly start becoming less frequent as he gets older.

I saw a different take on Martin coming in early. I thought it was to impress a new incoming manager. Rightly or wrongly Pearson benched both him and Hughes early on in the season to prove nobody's place was safe in the team. Ultimately I think this demotivated CM and added to his frustration. 

[brady1993]

8 minutes ago, McLovin said:

 

B) Yes I do, even when Martin was here last season his hold-up play was awful, he would fall over and lose it if a defender got touch tight which isn't what you need your target link up man to do. I wanted Ulloa in the summer, unrealistic but someone who is good at hold-up play and can run the channels to take the pressure off the back 4 and midfielders. If Clayton Donaldson was more prolific and a few years younger  then I'd suggest someone like him as he is the type of player we would need to looking at if Martin left permanently to fulfil the classical number 9 role.

Ulloa would have been a cracking shout to get in. Wouldn't have wanted Donaldson though, feel he is technically a bit too poor. 

I disagree a bit on your assessment that we need this player to run the channels. I feel it's more important that this player can come short, reliably show for the ball and get involved in the play with the midfield. I mean the ideal is he can do both and still be prolific but I feel  you don't find that sort of player in championship...

[brady1993]

10 minutes ago, McLovin said:

One thing we can all agree on though is that this is one of those debates that you aren't going to win over "the other side" no matter how convincing the arguments on the other side are. It's like with Brexit, you weren't going to persuade ukipers to vote to stay in as their minds were firmly made up.

You say this, yet in our recent back and forth on this thread I thought we'd actually found some middle ground. 

[brady1993]

8 minutes ago, Steve How Hard!!! said:

I saw a different take on Martin coming in early. I thought it was to impress a new incoming manager. Rightly or wrongly Pearson benched both him and Hughes early on in the season to prove nobody's place was safe in the team. Ultimately I think this demotivated CM and added to his frustration. 

I think it was a case of this and being asked to chase balls into channels, which he has never had the mobility to do well and not playing the ball into his feet.

[Mr Tibbs]

1 hour ago, McLovin said:

The likes of Davies and Vardy weren't declining though, they were getting better with age unlike Martin who simply isn't the same player. I stated this previously, he is nearly 28 but in footballing terms he is in his thirties because of his poor fitness, not necessarily his fault though because genetics plays a huge part.  Rooney's exactly the same, he is 30 but in footballing terms he is about 35 which is why he is struggling a lot more than other plays his age. Whilst some may think it was a good thing that Martin came a few weeks early into a pre season as it showed motivation, the fact that he had to come that early tells me that he knows himself he is coming to the end of his career in terms of peak performances so had to do the extra work that he has never previously done in order to sustain a reasonable physical condition. On the last part, Fulham are playing exactly his strengths and have quick runners up and around him but he has still looked terrible. Even last season when Wassall came in he didn't look like the player he was a few years before. Of course he had the odd good game like against Hull in the 4-0 win but these good performances will slowly start becoming less frequent as he gets older.

If we're judging them by the same standards, Davies definitely 'declined' in the fact he scored fewer goals for a few years after reaching 28. But also posted his best goalscoring PL season at 32. Genetics have held him back from certain aspects of the game since he made his debut, he just excels in others just as Martin does. 

I don't buy the poor fitness remark, these players do not start games in the second tier of english football if they are not physically fit enough. After watching him last night he looks exactly the same as he always was with ourselves. He's not going to run around after lost causes, definitely not his game. Rooney's role 10 years ago was a lot different to what it is now. Is Martin's? 

Assumptions don't really prove much unfortunately, you reading into Martin coming in early as a bad thing can be switched to a good thing with a play on words. We don't know facts so let's just see in time. Judging him after a handful of games is pretty pointless IMO, the same way being convinced he's done at 28 is. 

For what it's worth, I wouldn't want him back, I think that ship has sailed and we need something new at DCFC. 

 

[brady1993]

12 hours ago, McLovin said:

B) Yes I do, even when Martin was here last season his hold-up play was awful, he would fall over and lose it if a defender got touch tight which isn't what you need your target link up man to do. I wanted Ulloa in the summer, unrealistic but someone who is good at hold-up play and can run the channels to take the pressure off the back 4 and midfielders. If Clayton Donaldson was more prolific and a few years younger  then I'd suggest someone like him as he is the type of player we would need to looking at if Martin left permanently to fulfil the classical number 9 role.

Having thought about it a little more this is the sort of player that Clement needed to make his system more effective, a player who was very athletic and had a real physical presence to batter the opposing centre backs. Martin could do this to an extent but it was never the strongest area of his game and he suffered as a result.

I do think part of the dislike of Martin is rooted in a misunderstanding of what his strengths are and what his role has been when he has been successful. Under Mac Martin essentially played as a '10' up front on his own (a 'false nine'), his first thought was to come short and work with the midfield, and Martin has always been more successful when utilised like this (he played as the '10' as one of two up top for norwich) . Whereas Clement tried to utilise him as more of a traditional target man and spearhead the attack.