POLL: Chris Martin

[Mostyn6]

44 minutes ago, McLovin said:

The Burton game was the final nail in the coffin.

yeah, cos we had like... 9 players having worldie games, pure 10/10, and then Martin was shocking right?

[Mostyn6]

25 minutes ago, toddy said:

The consist with all this Martin talk is everything is spoken in past tense, he did this in 2013/14, he did that in 2014/15 - Yes he used to hold up the ball, Yes he used to bring others in to the game, Yes he used to score goals.

2 or 3 seasons in a players career can change that player from a decent striker to one that now struggles.

He know longer does those things that he used to do, not for us and not for Fulham.

Instead of worrying about Martin, lets focus on our current team, the team that really matters.

But Vydra has done nothing in recent past has he?

[rynny]

18 minutes ago, toddy said:

Yes I know, but it really doesn't not matter, as he is a Fulham player.

Actually technically he is still a Derby. We are still his parent club, we still hold his registration papers. He is ours.

This forum has had many threads about players that are out on loan over the years, because they are still our players, and, as far as I am aware, this is a place to come to talk about all things Derby and even some things that are nothing to do with the club. If you do not want to read about people discussing Chris Martin don't click on the thread discussing Chris Martin. It doesn't get any simpler than that, you would hope. 

[rynny]

57 minutes ago, McLovin said:

To add to my previous post some of his matches in the last few months going back to the end of last season were some of the worst performances from a player I've seen live, he didn't even look interested on occasions. The Burton game was the final nail in the coffin. The manager doesn't play to your strengths? So what get on with it rather than acting like a mardy ***** to your teammates,your manager and your fans. Everyone knew that Hughes and Bryson weren't defensive midfielders but they didn't moan, they just tried their hardest and got on with it.

I watched the Burton game back to see what it was that so many people were criticising him for in that game still not sure what more he was supposed to do. He set up Russell up but he hesitated and wasted the chance, had a decent effort on goal that was blocked by Akins (I think) arm, made a run to the near post for a cross from Christie who put it to the back post, mad a run to the near post for Olsson to put it to the back post, made a run to near post and Christie put it out for throw in, made a run to the back post and Olsson put it to the near post. Who wouldn't be frustrated at that? He was chasing the ball down in the channel only to be tripped by Turner (I think again) it was a blatant trip as well ignored by the ref, again Turner jumped over the top of him with a big push when he was trying to chest the ball, no free kick given again. He moved into space to receive the ball and set himself up for the push in the back from Turner, and our player doesn't hit him with a simple 10 yard pass. Who isn't going to get frustrated at that? He also sees his defence fail to deal with a cross and mark 1 of 2 players in the box when there was 6 of them trying to deal with 3 players. Again his flailing of arms is because he wants to win, and knows his teams were better than what they were putting forward, and he knew that he could do better as well, just frustration building on top of frustration. I guess he should be emotionless like Ince and Butterfield.

[England Ram]

1 hour ago, rynny said:

I watched the Burton game back to see what it was that so many people were criticising him for in that game still not sure what more he was supposed to do. He set up Russell up but he hesitated and wasted the chance, had a decent effort on goal that was blocked by Akins (I think) arm, made a run to the near post for a cross from Christie who put it to the back post, mad a run to the near post for Olsson to put it to the back post, made a run to near post and Christie put it out for throw in, made a run to the back post and Olsson put it to the near post. Who wouldn't be frustrated at that? He was chasing the ball down in the channel only to be tripped by Turner (I think again) it was a blatant trip as well ignored by the ref, again Turner jumped over the top of him with a big push when he was trying to chest the ball, no free kick given again. He moved into space to receive the ball and set himself up for the push in the back from Turner, and our player doesn't hit him with a simple 10 yard pass. Who isn't going to get frustrated at that? He also sees his defence fail to deal with a cross and mark 1 of 2 players in the box when there was 6 of them trying to deal with 3 players. Again his flailing of arms is because he wants to win, and knows his teams were better than what they were putting forward, and he knew that he could do better as well, just frustration building on top of frustration. I guess he should be emotionless like Ince and Butterfield.

This /\. Interesting that so many opinions about an in match performance are based on pre conceived ideas about a player. 

Ive done the same when watching a match back after being at the ground while it was on tv. Deliberately kept an eye on a player I've not rated and more often than not I've missed something that makes my opinion less harsh.

Martin for me was the least likely to do well in the formation Person wanted to play. I agree that he's out of form and yes sometimes he can be a non factor in a game, but looking at what he WAS trying to do given the lack of support from midfield was very note worthy. 

Our forward line continued to have many challenges after his loan due in part to the formation. 

I voted for him not to come back, not because of his ability, more about the challenge he'd possibly face from inside the club (if certain people wanted him gone) and part of our fan base who don't recognise what he brings. 

Id be very intrigued to see a forward 2 of Martin & Vydra though, however not in a 442 as we tried to play it. 

[toddy]

2 hours ago, Anon said:

Given the circumstances, no, it isn't good business.

The value of a player is relative, and considering that we're mooching around at the wrong end of the table as the lowest scorers in the league, getting 1 million per month to not have our most prolific striker in a decade available looks like a very poor bit of business.

He was not that prolific this season before he went to Fulham and that has continued at Fulham.

[toddy]

2 hours ago, rynny said:

Actually technically he is still a Derby. We are still his parent club, we still hold his registration papers. He is ours.

This forum has had many threads about players that are out on loan over the years, because they are still our players, and, as far as I am aware, this is a place to come to talk about all things Derby and even some things that are nothing to do with the club. If you do not want to read about people discussing Chris Martin don't click on the thread discussing Chris Martin. It doesn't get any simpler than that, you would hope. 

But still a Fulham player none the less until January at the very least and so Martin has no bearing on us , our playing style/formation/system until that time. Not sure what relevance Martin has on current team affairs, at all he is not going to be on the team for months at least. 

[Mr Tibbs]

4 minutes ago, toddy said:

He was not that prolific this season before he went to Fulham and that has continued at Fulham.

Prolific? In what, 2 starts? 

 

 

[rynny]

1 minute ago, toddy said:

But still a Fulham player none the less until January at the very least and so Martin has no bearing on us , our playing style/formation/system until that time. Not sure what relevance Martin has on current team affairs, at all he is not going to be on the team for months at least. 

That is why this thread is about whether you would want him back in January or not.

[Rammed79]

Well I think he's great come back Chris ! 

[toddy]

3 hours ago, Mostyn6 said:

But Vydra has done nothing in recent past has he?

But he is currently............

[lrm14]

 

5 minutes ago, toddy said:

But he is currently............

So? He was absolutely dire at Reading yet we've given him a chance over here and he's looking sharp again. Martin is going through a poor run of form but his ability hasn't just disappeared. You're so quick to cast a proven goal scorer away yet we've taken in one who was in a similar situation. 

[toddy]

1 hour ago, Mr Tibbs said:

Prolific? In what, 2 starts? 

 

 

Ok, I rewrite it  Martin played in 6 out of 7 games in August - prolific nope!

But he is consistent at the moment, as he failed to find the net in 6 Fulham games so far.

He was a good striker for us 2 to 3 years ago -past tense here.

We need to move on, lets face it would you really want to build a team around a striker who cannot find the net for 19 games? 

[toddy]

6 minutes ago, lrm14 said:

 

So? He was absolutely dire at Reading yet we've given him a chance over here and he's looking sharp again. Martin is going through a poor run of form but his ability hasn't just disappeared. You're so quick to cast a proven goal scorer away yet we've taken in one who was in a similar situation. 

OK, look at his scoring record over the last 3 seasons has it record gradually increased  over that period or decreased?

In 3 years a striker can go from great to very average.

[Leicester Ram]

If Angel Di Maria's so good, why didn't it work out for him at Man United?

If Zlatan Ibrahimovic's so good, why didn't it work out for him at Barcelona?

If Mario Gotze's so good, why didn't it work out for him at Bayern?

If Andriy Shevchenko's so good, why didn't it work out for him at Chelsea?

If Gerard Pique's so good, why didn't it work out for him at Man United?

If Daniel Sturridge is so good, why didn't it work out for him at Chelsea?

If Matej Vydra's so good, why didn't it work out for him at Reading?

Do you think the clubs that got those players after they had a poor time elsewhere regretted signing a player who wasn't in good form? No, they bloody didn't, because class is permanent and better run clubs than us knew that too. Martin clearly has class and he's shown that class with players in our current squad!

Do you know who we signed after they were in really good form? Nick Blackman. And we probably wouldn't be having this argument if he was as good as hope was at the start of last season at Reading.

Its easy to admit that all signings have a risk factor, they might not work out, but bringing Martin back is an obscenely low risk move.

[cannable]

9 minutes ago, toddy said:

Ok, I rewrite it  Martin played in 6 out of 7 games in August - prolific nope!

But he is consistent at the moment, as he failed to find the net in 6 Fulham games so far.

He was a good striker for us 2 to 3 years ago -past tense here.

We need to move on, lets face it would you really want to build a team around a striker who cannot find the net for 19 games? 

I thought we weren't allowed to talk about the past, Toddy my man?

[lrm14]

9 minutes ago, toddy said:

OK, look at his scoring record over the last 3 seasons has it record gradually increased  over that period or decreased?

In 3 years a striker can go from great to very average.

It's been consistent, in fact he probably would have had more under Clement had he not been injured for a few months. You're also ignoring the goals he's created, which has increased over the past few seasons.

[BondJovi]

Bring him back. We did not need to replace him and no Vydra is not his replacement. We need them both. The problem was not Martin, it was our over reliance on him. There were two key roles in that 4-3-3 that required a specific skill set to get the whole thing firing, the DM and CF position. Martin brought so many other players into the game, we were lucky to have him in form for so long. When not playing well, I believe it hampered our whole attacking play, he was the pivot. We couldn't haul him off because we have no one else who can do that role. If a striker like Bent is having a stinker, you only lose the final moment, there are many strikers of that ilk but very few like Martin.

Not the fault of Martin that it was built around him with no one to take some of the load. Vydra I see as someone who could be part of the three, a direct partner for Martin or use his mobility to create space in the 4-3-3.

Having said all that, part of me does wonder if that excellent form for Derby is now gone as we are very unlikely to return to the way that suited him best.

[toddy]

16 minutes ago, cannable said:

I thought we weren't allowed to talk about the past, Toddy my man?

That is the reason I mentioned it, everybody is talking about Martin did this, did that, we played 4-3-3 in 13/14 blah blah blah

We do really need to move on regarding Martin, he was very good a few season back for us, but so was Buxton, Ward etc.....

 

[1967Ram]

5 hours ago, cannable said:

These Martin discussions are ultimately futile. Any facts or stats or whatever are just ignored. I remember when there used to be the myth that he 'doesn't do it in big games' or 'against good teams' only for stats to show that in Top Six Clashes Martin's record is both good and comparatively better than Vokes' and Gray's by a long way. Yeah… got ignored by his detractors.

Then there's the idea that he can't do it in any other system - despite the fact that he scored 10 in 25 in a front pairing (with another two incorrectly disallowed) whilst creating four. This is in a team whose average position at the time was 14th! Then in 115 minutes worth of cameos as an attacking midfielder he's created four one on ones for us and scored one! 

Then there's the idea that he only plays well when you play to his strengths… well what striker is this not true of? Like seriously; could you imagine Steve Howard trying to execute slick one touch passes around a corner? And some people have the audacity to state that his first time flicks are just fancy, merely look pretty and have no substance! 

Last season was his worst season with us and yet he still scored 15, assisted another 12 and created more chances from open play than any other player in the division and yet he's apparently had it! This is in a team that for six months was defence first and didn't play to his strengths (which I suppose dispells the myth that he can only do it when you play to his strength).

In fact, it's just a circle isn't it? "Martin was crap last season." "We didn't play to his strengths." "See, he's only good when you play to his strengths, rubbish, get rid." 

I can't be bothered any more, there's a difference of opinion but some people when it comes to Martin are just stupid. I wonder if it's because of his loan spell - fans were 50/50; there was clearly a player there if not a bit rusty but others just thought he was crap - perhaps they've just been trying to save face and wait for an opportunity to say "I told you so".

 

Right on the button IMO