Ninos Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 3 hours ago, RodleyRam said: On a scale of 1 to deeply saddened, how much are you disappointed that no-one chose to engage with this pathetic excuse for wummery? Martin is undoubtedy the best sriker we've had in the last 15 years. Kudos to you though for at least keeping yourself going whilst everyone else on the forum has fallen into a coma every time you post something completely ridiculous about CM... seriously impressive levels delusion and lack of grip on reality. Ever thought of going into politics? You're wasted on here... He plays like he's in a coma and his performances or lack thereof are the wummery that got him shipped from us and now prob benched at Fulham. The best striker in 15 years is a ridiculous remark and makes you the deluded one pal. If he's the best then we've been a very sad team. This fantastic Striker you refer to ... how many premier league teams have bid for him? Zero. What's he done for us in the last 9 months? Zero. Whats he doing at Fulham ? Zero. Serviceable squad player at this level only capable of playing in one formation is the best argument you've got. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bris Vegas Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 9 minutes ago, Ninos said: He plays like he's in a coma and his performances or lack thereof are the wummery that got him shipped from us and now prob benched at Fulham. The best striker in 15 years is a ridiculous remark and makes you the deluded one pal. If he's the best then we've been a very sad team. This fantastic Striker you refer to ... how many premier league teams have bid for him? Zero. What's he done for us in the last 9 months? Zero. Whats he doing at Fulham ? Zero. Serviceable squad player at this level only capable of playing in one formation is the best argument you've got. Who has been an equal or better striker for Derby in the past 15 years in your opinion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiddingsRam Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 5 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said: Who has been an equal or better striker for Derby in the past 15 years in your opinion? I'm a bit on the fence here , because I agree with you that there hasn't been a better performing striker here in 15 years , probably since Dean Sturrigde. But on the flip side I don't believe Martin is very adaptable to a change in style or shape, unless the rest of the team plays to his strengths he doesn't offer a great deal ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bris Vegas Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 6 minutes ago, RiddingsRam said: I'm a bit on the fence here , because I agree with you that there hasn't been a better performing striker here in 15 years , probably since Dean Sturrigde. But on the flip side I don't believe Martin is very adaptable to a change in style or shape, unless the rest of the team plays to his strengths he doesn't offer a great deal ! Would you envisage Howard or Rasiak performing to the best of their abilites in a Pearson or Clement team? Martin may not be adaptable to a team which sits deep and doesn't apply a press, but that doesn't make him a bad player. Benteke was terrible at Liverpool - is he a bad player? He can only play one way and that's thriving on early crosses from wide areas. He doesn't play very well in a team which applies a high press, looks to attack through the middle and focuses more on controlling the game. Yet he's a £30m player. There are countless number of players who thrive in one particular system or way of playing, and on the flip side perform poorly in a completely different style. Some as good as Ibrahimovic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toddy Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 I read earlier that he was not paid to score goals. So after 19 games, he's doing a fantastic job, have Fulham paid the extra £5 million yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archied Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 7 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said: Who has been an equal or better striker for Derby in the past 15 years in your opinion? Anybody arguing that Martin has not done a fantastic job for us in the past is just anti Martin for the sake of it and not looking at his time with us through unbiased eyes , that said it's in the past and those three seasons were probably the best of his pro career so far and I'm willing to bet they won't be anywhere near matched by him again sometimes players just like managers have a right time right place right fit period and I believe Martin had his with us ( blackmans season with reading too?) .. I saw a post saying it was ok that Martin deosnt pointlessly chase defenders but that's also not being honest as footballs very much about pressing high and starts with strikers putting pressure on defenders and the team supporting them in that press , in the main most on here agree we want us pressing high ,closing down and playing a high tempo game ? I'm happy to thank Martin for his time with us and wish him all the best on his move and start to build a side with players bought or brought through that we hope will be able to make the step up to the prem if and when we get there and I don't believe that's martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toddy Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 I have said it once or twice before we really need to move on with regards Martin. He did what he was paid to do a few seasons back, but has probably peaked and just maybe is where he was prior to those 2 season with us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninos Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 25 minutes ago, RiddingsRam said: I'm a bit on the fence here , because I agree with you that there hasn't been a better performing striker here in 15 years , probably since Dean Sturrigde. But on the flip side I don't believe Martin is very adaptable to a change in style or shape, unless the rest of the team plays to his strengths he doesn't offer a great deal ! Well I loved deano and he was a good striker but he was a bit frustrating and never really fulfilled his potential. I think he'd admit that. The best striker we've had in the past 25 years is Dean Saunders. It's been poor since but then we've essentially been playing lower division football. The beauty of Martin is that a shoestring budget club created a formation a system to suit a serviceable striker who we got for free. The system, the players behind him and around him, is what gave him his stats. A good opposing manager could shut down our system and Martin was incapable of scoring (or even performing) in those because he has zero one on one skill, no pace and no power, reflecting his value. We were too predictable. But the club have done a very poor job finding truly good strikers, even up and coming ones, very poor in fact. In vydra, you have a possibility. He's a runner who can finish but he needs service. Its Offrande Zanzala that represents our best hope. He's a joy to watch - quick extremely powerful an eye for the net, and he doesn't need service all the time. He makes things happen. Sadly he's out until next season, but he has the tools. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bris Vegas Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 4 minutes ago, archied said: Anybody arguing that Martin has not done a fantastic job for us in the past is just anti Martin for the sake of it and not looking at his time with us through unbiased eyes , that said it's in the past and those three seasons were probably the best of his pro career so far and I'm willing to bet they won't be anywhere near matched by him again sometimes players just like managers have a right time right place right fit period and I believe Martin had his with us ( blackmans season with reading too?) .. I saw a post saying it was ok that Martin deosnt pointlessly chase defenders but that's also not being honest as footballs very much about pressing high and starts with strikers putting pressure on defenders and the team supporting them in that press , in the main most on here agree we want us pressing high ,closing down and playing a high tempo game ? I'm happy to thank Martin for his time with us and wish him all the best on his move and start to build a side with players bought or brought through that we hope will be able to make the step up to the prem if and when we get there and I don't believe that's martin Derby performed their best when they adopted a high press. It's much easier to get your creative and best attacking threats in dangerous positions by winning the ball high up the pitch, rather than passing the ball out from the back and into the final third. That's why it made no sense for Paul Clement to adopt such a tactic of sitting back and getting in shape, winning the ball in deep areas and using a controlling possession style to progress up the pitch. We aren't Real Madrid. At Derby, a Championship team, he was asking far too much of our players. Now back to Martin. His best attributes are his ball control, speed of thought and bringing others into play. The reason he doesn't run around like a headless chicken, even in a high press, is because you want him in central positions. There is absolutely no reason for him to chase lost causes or move out in to wide areas, as that isn't playing to his strengths. It isn't him being lazy, it's simply him acknowledging where he can be at his most effective. Our wide forwards, coupled with an attack-minded midfielder should also press. It shouldn't be down to one striker chasing the back four around while the rest of the team get back in shape. That's nonsensical, yet that's what happened under Clement last season. Those calling Martin lazy don't understand how football works. I'm sorry, but it's as simple as that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cool As Custard Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 9 hours ago, wixman1884 said: Mostly likely because he's not played under the manager from 2013/14 & 2014/15. We haven't played a system that's suited him as well since then, so it's very presumptuous to assume he's finished. If we play with a system/manager that suits him it would be incredibly foolish to not get him back. If we don't, then by all means leave him at Fulham. On his day, he's one of the best players in the division and his link up play is a joy to watch. But that is the whole point - the system that suits him has been worked out by other teams! That system did not get us promoted. We are too easy to stop & need to adapt to a way of playing that will get us results on a consistent basis. Just because things aren't going well right now doesn't mean we should go backwards and return to what didn't get us promoted before. Too many people using rose tinted spectacles right now! Even when Wassall put the 433 that suited him back in place for the second half of last season how many goals did he score? Did it get us promoted? As I keep saying thanks for the memories Chris but every dog has its day, you have had yours and it's time to move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninos Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 20 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said: Would you envisage Howard or Rasiak performing to the best of their abilites in a Pearson or Clement team? Martin may not be adaptable to a team which sits deep and doesn't apply a press, but that doesn't make him a bad player. Benteke was terrible at Liverpool - is he a bad player? He can only play one way and that's thriving on early crosses from wide areas. He doesn't play very well in a team which applies a high press, looks to attack through the middle and focuses more on controlling the game. Yet he's a £30m player. There are countless number of players who thrive in one particular system or way of playing, and on the flip side perform poorly in a completely different style. Some as good as Ibrahimovic. One of your best posts but still doesn't account for the other aspects of Martin - his total lack of pace, his failure to keep the ball (sometimes he will keep the ball other times just flick it to the opposition creating dangerous counters) his extremely poor execution in the air, then add in the lack of workrate, the flapping at teammates, the diving, the lack of pressing to cause a mistake etc etc. Hes a weak player. These one system players you talk of are still premier league players but Martin isn't nor ever will be, so what's the difference? What is it that Martin lacks in your opinion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anag Ram Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 IMO Martin is the best creative passer of the ball at the club. However, good passers need willing runners and for some reason we have lacked these of late. Whether it's the rigours of the team set-up, a lack of confidence or the general lack of desire I'm not sure but I do know it's a long time since I've seen a Derby player other than Vydra busting a gut to get on the end of a pass. Martin lacks that himself. There have been plenty of slow forwards over the years and what they learned was how to create a little space for themselves with late movement. That's the piece of the jigsaw we need from CM. The ability to find enough space to use his shooting skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archied Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 5 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said: Derby performed their best when they adopted a high press. It's much easier to get your creative and best attacking threats in dangerous positions by winning the ball high up the pitch, rather than passing the ball out from the back and into the final third. That's why it made no sense for Paul Clement to adopt such a tactic of sitting back and getting in shape, winning the ball in deep areas and using a controlling possession style to progress up the pitch. We aren't Real Madrid. At Derby, a Championship team, he was asking far too much of our players. Now back to Martin. His best attributes are his ball control, speed of thought and bringing others into play. The reason he doesn't run around like a headless chicken, even in a high press, is because you want him in central positions. There is absolutely no reason for him to chase lost causes or move out in to wide areas, as that isn't playing to his strengths. It isn't him being lazy, it's simply him acknowledging where he can be at his most effective. Our wide forwards, coupled with an attack-minded midfielder should also press. It shouldn't be down to one striker chasing the back four around while the rest of the team get back in shape. That's nonsensical, yet that's what happened under Clement last season. Those calling Martin lazy don't understand how football works. I'm sorry, but it's as simple as that. Given you a like because I agree with most of the post but in fairness there's also a bit of not being prepared to acknowledge the parts of Martin that are his weaknesses ,,, he does go over too easy , he does go into a moody strop when things not going well and yes I don't want him chasing down the back four all over the place on his own but I do want him leading by example as the first in line closing down in packs from the front ,, I hear lots regarding the crowd not lifting the players but I think you are missing the vital effect a striker showing real grit and determination to win a lost ball back has on the crowd and as a by product on the rest of the team , rather than going down then throwing his arms in the air and just looking disappointed with team mates or the ref ,, I don't ness think he's lazy ( he gets back and defends well in our area ) but I think it's a massive chink in his game that can be spread to the team in games that are not going so well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bris Vegas Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 15 minutes ago, Ninos said: One of your best posts but still doesn't account for the other aspects of Martin - his total lack of pace, his failure to keep the ball (sometimes he will keep the ball other times just flick it to the opposition creating dangerous counters) his extremely poor execution in the air, then add in the lack of workrate, the flapping at teammates, the diving, the lack of pressing to cause a mistake etc etc. Hes a weak player. These one system players you talk of are still premier league players but Martin isn't nor ever will be, so what's the difference? What is it that Martin lacks in your opinion? Every striker in the league loses the ball on occasions. Why would you expect Martin to be any different? Extremely poor execution in the air? He's scored numerous headers over the past three years, more than our current strikers Wilson and Vydra combined. Sure he's no Steve Howard, but we shouldn't be playing lofted high balls from the back when he is clearly better receiving the ball at his feet. Picking up on his poor execution in the air is the same as picking up on Luis Suarez's poor execution in the air... Erm, it isn't their game... Lack of workrate? Why would you want him running around in wide areas hunting for the ball when he doesn't possess the pace or skill to beat a player one vs one. You said it yourself. Think about it... His best attributes are his ball control, speed of thought and bringing others into play. The reason he doesn't run around like a headless chicken, even in a high press, is because you want him in central positions. There is absolutely no reason for him to chase lost causes or move out in to wide areas, as that isn't playing to his strengths. It isn't him being lazy, it's simply him acknowledging where he can be at his most effective. Our wide forwards, coupled with an attack-minded midfielder should also press. It shouldn't be down to one striker chasing the back four around while the rest of the team get back in shape. That's nonsensical, yet that's what happened under Clement last season. Flapping at teammates? Goalkeepers do this when their defence infront of them doesn't do the basics. Why should a striker who clearly excels when the ball is played into his feet be any different? I see you haven't answered any of my questions... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bris Vegas Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 For those interested, skip to 4:00 and you'll hear Klopp's thoughts on the effect of a high press. Now think back to Bryson/Martin under McClaren especially in that first season, and compare to Clement's idea of getting everybody quickly back in shape and relying on a controlling style to create goal scoring opportunities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brammie Steve Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 Definitely, assuredly, absolutely and indubitably yes! Without him on the pitch we are like Lord Brian's Champions minus Kevin Hector. Chris Martin has his flaws like anyone else but his presence in a Rams' shirt gives the opposition food for thought and he takes some marking even on an off day. We are definitely missing him particularly in a 433 structure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninos Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 2 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said: Every striker in the league loses the ball on occasions. Why would you expect Martin to be any different? His little flicks and layoffs often go to the other team. As for losing the ball on occasion; if the ball is served to him and it's 50/50 with the defender he will lose that battle almost every time. You'd have to be there to see it. Extremely poor execution in the air? He's scored numerous headers over the past three years, more than our current strikers Wilson and Vydra combined. The dude can't head the ball into the net given a ton of chances. We get so many corners and he's a non threat. Again he may get the odd one but I'm going by how little impact he has in the air for a supposed big guy. Sure he's no Steve Howard, but we shouldn't be playing lofted high balls from the back when he is clearly better receiving the ball at his feet. Picking up on his poor execution in the air is the same as picking up on Luis Suarez's poor execution in the air... Erm, it isn't their game... Don't compare Suarez that's just daft. The only comparison is that you have one great player who flaps at teammates and one weak player who flaps at teammates. Lack of workrate? Why would you want him running around in wide areas hunting for the ball when he doesn't possess the pace or skill to beat a player one vs one. You said it yourself. Think about it... you don't create a turnover if you don't press regardless of your one on one ability. we need him pressing at least some of the time. Flapping at teammates? Goalkeepers do this when their defence infront of them doesn't do the basics. Why should a striker who clearly excels when the ball is played into his feet be any different? come on. Schmeichel demanding better isn't Martin whining like a lil ... not every ball can be perfect. If it's not perfect,he just flaps and gives up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bris Vegas Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 12 minutes ago, Ninos said: You're picking on Chris Martin for being a non-threat at corners? The guy is only 6ft 1inch, he's shorter than Keogh, Shackell, Thorne, Christie and Forsyth and no doubt about five of the opposition as well. What are you expecting? As for often losing the ball and 50/50s, sorry I'm just not buying that... The press has to be done by more than one player. The two inside forwards should push high and narrow, but under Pearson and Clement they've dropped deep and wide, leaving Martin to press on his own with no white shirt near him. I've explained this already, it's not him being lazy at all... You still haven't answered my questions I see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nottingram Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 52 minutes ago, Ninos said: Well I loved deano and he was a good striker but he was a bit frustrating and never really fulfilled his potential. I think he'd admit that. The best striker we've had in the past 25 years is Dean Saunders. It's been poor since but then we've essentially been playing lower division football. The beauty of Martin is that a shoestring budget club created a formation a system to suit a serviceable striker who we got for free. The system, the players behind him and around him, is what gave him his stats. A good opposing manager could shut down our system and Martin was incapable of scoring (or even performing) in those because he has zero one on one skill, no pace and no power, reflecting his value. We were too predictable. But the club have done a very poor job finding truly good strikers, even up and coming ones, very poor in fact. In vydra, you have a possibility. He's a runner who can finish but he needs service. Its Offrande Zanzala that represents our best hope. He's a joy to watch - quick extremely powerful an eye for the net, and he doesn't need service all the time. He makes things happen. Sadly he's out until next season, but he has the tools. So when you've said you hugely disagree with the statement that we've not had a better striker in the last fifteen years, the three names you throw out are one that played 25 years ago, one that has never played a game for us, and one that has scored two goals for us. Righto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninos Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 16 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said: For those interested, skip to 4:00 and you'll hear Klopp's thoughts on the effect of a high press. Now think back to Bryson/Martin under McClaren especially in that first season, and compare to Clement's idea of getting everybody quickly back in shape and relying on a controlling style to create goal scoring opportunities. Saw this live and love it. Klopp is a different class and can actually coach and implement the theory. Spurs and now Man City are also playing this way. But you're trying to tell us that mclaren gegerpressed? martin is the very definition of a player that prevents you from playing the Klopp way. Bryson is a klopp type player. The rest of your point here about Clement has no relevance to the video. Big stretch buddy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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