POLL: Chris Martin

[cannable]

These Martin discussions are ultimately futile. Any facts or stats or whatever are just ignored. I remember when there used to be the myth that he 'doesn't do it in big games' or 'against good teams' only for stats to show that in Top Six Clashes Martin's record is both good and comparatively better than Vokes' and Gray's by a long way. Yeah… got ignored by his detractors.

Then there's the idea that he can't do it in any other system - despite the fact that he scored 10 in 25 in a front pairing (with another two incorrectly disallowed) whilst creating four. This is in a team whose average position at the time was 14th! Then in 115 minutes worth of cameos as an attacking midfielder he's created four one on ones for us and scored one! 

Then there's the idea that he only plays well when you play to his strengths… well what striker is this not true of? Like seriously; could you imagine Steve Howard trying to execute slick one touch passes around a corner? And some people have the audacity to state that his first time flicks are just fancy, merely look pretty and have no substance! 

Last season was his worst season with us and yet he still scored 15, assisted another 12 and created more chances from open play than any other player in the division and yet he's apparently had it! This is in a team that for six months was defence first and didn't play to his strengths (which I suppose dispells the myth that he can only do it when you play to his strength).

In fact, it's just a circle isn't it? "Martin was crap last season." "We didn't play to his strengths." "See, he's only good when you play to his strengths, rubbish, get rid." 

I can't be bothered any more, there's a difference of opinion but some people when it comes to Martin are just stupid. I wonder if it's because of his loan spell - fans were 50/50; there was clearly a player there if not a bit rusty but others just thought he was crap - perhaps they've just been trying to save face and wait for an opportunity to say "I told you so".

 

[RoyMac5]

4 minutes ago, cannable said:

These Martin discussions are ultimately futile. Any facts or stats or whatever are just ignored...

Last season was his worst season with us and yet he still scored 15, assisted another 12 and created more chances from open play than any other player in the division and yet he's apparently had it!

...

In fact, it's just a circle isn't it? "Martin was crap last season." "We didn't play to his strengths." "See, he's only good when you play to his strengths, rubbish, get rid." 

I can't be bothered any more, there's a difference of opinion but some people when it comes to Martin are just stupid. I wonder if it's because of his loan spell - fans were 50/50; there was clearly a player there if not a bit rusty but others just thought he was crap - perhaps they've just been trying to save face and wait for an opportunity to say "I told you so".

 

Nail on the head cannable.

[Alph]

1 hour ago, rynny said:

The Hull at home league game for the most part as well, Martin bullied Davies and Dawson all game, they didn't know how to play against him.

The trick always used to be if you go tight on Martin and get it wrong that 

a)he draws a foul

b) One touch lay off and you're out of position 

c) We don't use Martin and you're out of position 

d) you drop off him and let him turn. 

It tended to not work when other players left him to fight off a CB. And here he's not strong enough (or rather chooses not to be), not quick enough, not great in the air and gets worse with more time on the ball to think.

Yet people choose to look at our formation on paper and think it's the same as Mac's system. Only Wassall played anything like Mac. And only in patches. But Martin began to look better. This target man ***** under Pearson was murdering Martin. 

[Curtains]

11 minutes ago, Alpha said:

The trick always used to be if you go tight on Martin and get it wrong that 

a)he draws a foul

b) One touch lay off and you're out of position 

c) We don't use Martin and you're out of position 

d) you drop off him and let him turn. 

It tended to not work when other players left him to fight off a CB. And here he's not strong enough (or rather chooses not to be), not quick enough, not great in the air and gets worse with more time on the ball to think.

Yet people choose to look at our formation on paper and think it's the same as Mac's system. Only Wassall played anything like Mac. And only in patches. But Martin began to look better. This target man ***** under Pearson was murdering Martin. 

You are right to a certain extent but tell me how many Premier League teams play that way nowadays. 

The idea I thought was to get to the Premier League and stay there and I wouldn't see Martin being good enough for that. 

I know you will say we aren't in the Premier League and we need to get there first. 

I just do not rate Martin as much as some I'm sorry. 

Good luck to the lad though and hope he plays ok for Scotland. 

[cheron85]

19 minutes ago, cannable said:

Then there's the idea that he can't do it in any other system - despite the fact that he scored 10 in 25 in a front pairing (with another two incorrectly disallowed) whilst creating four. This is in a team whose average position at the time was 14th! Then in 115 minutes worth of cameos as an attacking midfielder he's created four one on ones for us and scored one! 

 

11 minutes ago, Alpha said:

Yet people choose to look at our formation on paper and think it's the same as Mac's system. Only Wassall played anything like Mac. And only in patches. But Martin began to look better. This target man ***** under Pearson was murdering Martin. 

I actually think there's a more interesting point in here...

Martin has been at his best for us when he had a decent midfield supporter... The playoff final season he had Bryson providing support... The full-Mac season the wingers would pull inside more... 

Last season he 'struggled' because Clement's midfield sat so deep and were more concentrated on defending... And the games he's played under Pearson seems to be the same...

I actually think the games where Martin struggles is when he's left to fight against two giant CBs on his own... When he has some support and they have to leave him 1-on-1 with a CB he tears them apart...

[Alph]

4 minutes ago, curtains said:

You are right to a certain extent but tell me how many Premier League teams play that way nowadays. 

The idea I thought was to get to the Premier League and stay there and I wouldn't see Martin being good enough for that. 

I know you will say we aren't in the Premier League and we need to get there first. 

I just do not rate Martin as much as some I'm sorry. 

Yeah I would say that. Because it's true. Martin imo has proven to be our best bet at getting promoted. 

Southampton did it with Pelle. Watford use Deeney in a similar way

[Sexydadbod]

If Martin was genuinely one of the best players in the league wouldn't he stand out in the Fulham team like Dembele and McCormack did? Genuine question. Fulham fans reckon he isn't even better than Matt Smith. Good players do well no matter what the system is. I'd trust their judgment as they are the "unbiased" ones in this discussion. Yes we have seen that Martin could be useful for us in past seasons, the key word being could, not anymore. A lot of people have this impression that Martin can hold the ball up when in reality he can't, that's one of the weakest aspect of his game, especially when a defender gets touch tight to him. He was at his best when he dropped into little spaces and made flick ons for Bryson to chase. I said this before and I will say this again I doubt Martin will get 10-15 goals in a season again for the rest of his career. He is only 27 but in footballing terms he is in his thirties because of his poor fitness which means he won't improve. Players decline, these things happen, look at Torres and Falcao. Their managers tried all they could to help them get back to the players they were but sadly couldn't. You can't just pin all your hopes on hoping that Martin will get back to the player he was because that's simply not going happen at his age. I'm fine with people praising his past contributions but trying to kid yourself and others that he will get back to his past form will only end in tears because I'm 95% sure it won't happen.

[Curtains]

16 minutes ago, Alpha said:

Yeah I would say that. Because it's true. Martin imo has proven to be our best bet at getting promoted. 

Southampton did it with Pelle. Watford use Deeney in a similar way

It's a valid point of view and now Pearson may be gone it's probably even more valid if we revert back to 4-3-3 supporting Martin. 

What can I say as I didn't expect Pearson to be in this situation.

We all  knew Pearson preferred 4-4-2 or 4-1-4-1 .

I remember a forum at Derby with Clement hearing Mel Morris saying that Martin being injured wasn't the reason we didn't get promoted under McClaren to which I said but we had nobody to hold the ball up though and bring others in to play .

He said the problem was letting in goals and not scoring them  

Thats what you need in the 4-3-3 McClaren played . 

I think we have seen the best of Martin though now  but who knows as he does ok for Scotland. 

[Sexydadbod]

To add to my previous post some of his matches in the last few months going back to the end of last season were some of the worst performances from a player I've seen live, he didn't even look interested on occasions. The Burton game was the final nail in the coffin. The manager doesn't play to your strengths? So what get on with it rather than acting like a mardy ***** to your teammates,your manager and your fans. Everyone knew that Hughes and Bryson weren't defensive midfielders but they didn't moan, they just tried their hardest and got on with it.

[cannable]

11 minutes ago, McLovin said:

If Martin was genuinely one of the best players in the league wouldn't he stand out in the Fulham team like Dembele and McCormack did? Genuine question. Fulham fans reckon he isn't even better than Matt Smith. Good players do well no matter what the system is. I'd trust their judgment as they are the "unbiased" ones in this discussion. Yes we have seen that Martin could be useful for us in past seasons, the key word being could, not anymore. A lot of people have this impression that Martin can hold the ball up when in reality he can't, that's one of the weakest aspect of his game, especially when a defender gets touch tight to him. He was at his best when he dropped into little spaces and made flick ons for Bryson to chase. I said this before and I will say this again I doubt Martin will get 10-15 goals in a season again for the rest of his career. He is only 27 but in footballing terms he is in his thirties because of his poor fitness which means he won't improve. Players decline, these things happen, look at Torres and Falcao. Their managers tried all they could to help them get back to the players they were but sadly couldn't. You can't just pin all your hopes on hoping that Martin will get back to the player he was because that's simply not going happen at his age. I'm fine with people praising his past contributions but trying to kid yourself and others that he will get back to his past form will only end in tears because I'm 95% sure it won't happen.

Ninos likes this 

[Anon]

11 minutes ago, McLovin said:

If Martin was genuinely one of the best players in the league wouldn't he stand out in the Fulham team like Dembele and McCormack did? Genuine question. Fulham fans reckon he isn't even better than Matt Smith. Good players do well no matter what the system is. I'd trust their judgment as they are the "unbiased" ones in this discussion. Yes we have seen that Martin could be useful for us in past seasons, the key word being could, not anymore. A lot of people have this impression that Martin can hold the ball up when in reality he can't, that's one of the weakest aspect of his game, especially when a defender gets touch tight to him. He was at his best when he dropped into little spaces and made flick ons for Bryson to chase. I said this before and I will say this again I doubt Martin will get 10-15 goals in a season again for the rest of his career. He is only 27 but in footballing terms he is in his thirties because of his poor fitness which means he won't improve. Players decline, these things happen, look at Torres and Falcao. Their managers tried all they could to help them get back to the players they were but sadly couldn't. You can't just pin all your hopes on hoping that Martin will get back to the player he was because that's simply not going happen at his age. I'm fine with people praising his past contributions but trying to kid yourself and others that he will get back to his past form will only end in tears because I'm 95% sure it won't happen.

You may be right about Martin never again hitting the heights he has managed in the past three years, but Martin at 75% is way better than all our other options bar Vydra. Assuming we get Martin back at some point, surely it would be more sensible to at least try and get him firing again before heading out into the transfer market to spend 10 million+ on a replacement.

[toddy]

The consist with all this Martin talk is everything is spoken in past tense, he did this in 2013/14, he did that in 2014/15 - Yes he used to hold up the ball, Yes he used to bring others in to the game, Yes he used to score goals.

2 or 3 seasons in a players career can change that player from a decent striker to one that now struggles.

He know longer does those things that he used to do, not for us and not for Fulham.

Instead of worrying about Martin, lets focus on our current team, the team that really matters.

[Anon]

2 minutes ago, toddy said:

Instead of worrying about Martin, lets focus on our current team, the team that really matters.

People are focused on the current team. Specifically focused on the lack of goals and poor quality of our strikers (excluding Vydra). That's why people look to Martin.

[toddy]

Just now, Anon said:

People are focused on the current team. Specifically focused on the lack of goals and poor quality of our strikers (excluding Vydra). That's why people look to Martin.

Thought the issue was all Pearson's fault?

Martin is a Fulham player.............

 

[cannable]

8 minutes ago, toddy said:

The consist with all this Martin talk is everything is spoken in past tense, he did thisInstead of worrying about Martin, lets focus on our current team, the team that really matters.

This is a thread about whether you would have Chris Martin back… if you're looking to avoid a discussion about Martin then you're in the wrong place mate. 

[Anon]

1 minute ago, toddy said:

Thought the issue was all Pearson's fault?

Martin is a Fulham player.............

 

Pearson shipped out Martin and I'm in favour of having him back. Where do you see a conflict of interest in wanting Martin back and blaming Pearson for his absence?

I don't know the terms of the deal, but it would seem like a massive waste of everyone's time to structure it with an initial loan payment if Fulham are tied into making it permanent.

[toddy]

2 minutes ago, cannable said:

This is a thread about whether you would have Chris Martin back… if you're looking to avoid a discussion about Martin then you're in the wrong place mate. 

Yes I know, but it really doesn't not matter, as he is a Fulham player.

[toddy]

1 minute ago, Anon said:

Pearson shipped out Martin and I'm in favour of having him back. Where do you see a conflict of interest in wanting Martin back and blaming Pearson for his absence?

I don't know the terms of the deal, but it would seem like a massive waste of everyone's time to structure it with an initial loan payment if Fulham are tied into making it permanent.

Was it good business?

£1million a month or so we are making him being at Fulham.

[cannable]

7 minutes ago, toddy said:

Yes I know, but it really doesn't not matter, as he is a Fulham player.

I presume you've tried to shut down the Jeff Hendrick thread as well?

[Anon]

1 minute ago, toddy said:

Was it good business?

£1million a month or so we are making him being at Fulham.

Given the circumstances, no, it isn't good business.

The value of a player is relative, and considering that we're mooching around at the wrong end of the table as the lowest scorers in the league, getting 1 million per month to not have our most prolific striker in a decade available looks like a very poor bit of business.