Derby v Reading

[Ninos]

33 minutes ago, steve brummie said:

Correct me if I'm missing something here but.

Didn't we lose this one nil three at the end of last season and end up in 8th spot?

Even a point like last night might make a huge difference.

Play badly and still get something is better than nothing surely.

 

Yes you're missing something. That was the performance of a bottom three side, not a contender. They were allowed to look like Real Madrid minus a strike force. I think most felt very guilty that we took a point. Good news is that at least PC saw it and was furious. 

[Saturn5]

If PC is so upset, why didn't he make changes instead of like for like with the subs he did make ?

We could have switched to 4-3-3 but continued to flog a dead horse ! is this Arrogance ?

Seems that after losing to the best team in the league (Boro) we have paniced - bought two forward players and then changed the formation to accomodate 

Think it will be back to the tried and tested on Saturday (i hope)

Maybe us South Standers need to look at our performance too as that was the worst Atmosphere for a long time

[Thierry Ennui]

I genuinely think that's one of our worst home performances in years. If it wasn't for our defence - which is one of the best in the division regardless of our attacking functions - we could have lost by 4 or more goals.

It's all well and good Clement being angry with his team, but I'm concerned he did nothing to stop the rot and that he didn't recognise how wrong he'd gotten it tactically.

We can't play 4-2-3-1 (Or 4-4-2 or whatever it was) with that line-up. That formation requires two strong and tactically aware players in front of the defence. Johnson should (on paper) have been fine but is woefully out of form, and Butterfield is an attacking midfielder with little to no defending ability. He can't play that deep.

Essentially we had four strikers and two midfielders (who were always marked) and so were forced to play long balls so as not to lose the ball in dangerous central positions. Having just two midfielders meant Reading were able to play much higher up the pitch. They came unstuck a couple of times in the first half, Derby having 3 or 4 very promising counter attacks, but overall it was the right call because they controlled the match both with and without the ball.

When Johnson and Butterfield joined we had a couple of matches where our midfield was actually passing the ball to one another and it was great to see. Unfortunately without Thorne in the side our balance seems to be way out.

Not gonna bother talking about most of the players. I did, however, think Blackman showed flashes of ability and I'm excited to see him playing when we have some flow in the side and teams look scared of us again. Fingers crossed Thorne is back for Saturday. Special mention for Russell who is just an infuriating player now.

Also, if Clement doesn't trust Baird or Hanson to play Thorne's role, then he needs to get an able DM in on loan.

[ossieram]

I'll just add my 2 penneth worth. That was the worst performance of the season and I can't think of one player that can come of that pitch and think he has played well.

Team was crap, fans were crap.

[ValeRam]

Good to see PC so upfront and honest about last night

I sometimes I wonder if its very easy to complicate football too much - change formations too often and giving players too much to think about generally leads to problems. It might be an idea for him to keep things simple , stick to a regular, simple formation and stop sending players onto the pitch with too much to think about or, even worse, a sense of confusion before they had even started. Switching individual player's positions and responsibilities game to game cannot help either.

You also wonder about the merits of playing two holding midfielders out of position, at home, against a relatively poorly performing team. Isn't that a little negative ?

It just seems to be far too complicated at the moment. There's no question that we have a squad full of high quality individuals - at present they are not playing as a team for the above reasons in my opinion.

Unfortunately, thats two major tactical blunders in consecutive championship games - one overly positive, one overly negative, which is a little concerning in itself.

[Shang]

Clement looks/sounds FURIOUS on the RamsPlayer interview. He looks absolutely let down.

[duncanjwitham]

3 minutes ago, ValeRam said:

about the merits of playing two holding midfielders out of position, at home, against a relatively poorly performing team. Isn't that a little negative ?

It isn't a negative formation - in theory, those 2 midfielders give your front 4 and fullbacks a lot more license to get forward and attack.  The big problem was the lack of discipline in those 2 midfielders (mainly because Johnson is awfully out of form and Butterfield and Hendrick just aren't holding midfielders).  So we were alternating between the back 6 sitting too deep and getting disconnected from the forwards, or the 2 midfielders pushing on too much and leaving a massive gap behind them.  In both cases we pretty much gave Reading a free reign in midfield to pass it around at leisure.  The most worrying thing is that Clement couldn't see it.  Hendrick (or even Baird) should have come on at half time, if not earlier (probably for Russell) and gone back to 433, got a foothold in midfield and played from there.

I don't think the 4231 has worked at any point we've tried it.  Even against Bristol City we were utterly awful until Ince pulled a wonder goal from nowhere, then their keeper dropped a clanger and they gave up (and we switched back to 433 after that anyway).  We just don't have the players to play it - none of our midfielders can play in that 2, bar maybe Thorne (and he does it so well that it's a waste playing another holder alongside him), and you can't play 3 dribbly forwards in the 3, you need at least one clever player to pull strings (like Piazon for Reading last night).

[admira]

Tonight's result could make us see last nights draw in a different light.

If Hull draw, we're no worse off. If Hull lose, we've extended our lead in second place. If Hull win ... well, we don't want to talk about that.

[Wolfie20]

Nobody can say that wasn't a dreadful performance and it's understandable that Clement was so vociferous in his criticism, though whether he should have kept some of it for behind closed doors is debatable. What his comments shouldn't do is deflect any blame from sitting firmly with himself!

That wasn't 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3, more like a throwback to the 70s when 4-2-4 was the norm. If every team played it then fine but anything else and you just get over-run in midfield which is exactly what happened last night. It was apparent in the first 10 minutes that Johnson and Butterfield were being bypassed far too easily and that continued for the remainder of the match.

The first substitution was 10 minutes too late and to then take off a midfielder and replace with another midfielder was unbelievable - Russell should have been hooked. His reaction to the cross for their goal was terrible - he seemed to see the danger but did absolutely nothing to stop it! 

Only Grant, Keogh (what an inspiration to the rest of the team) and Warnock can take any credit from that performance and it's going to be interesting to see who plays where against Birmingham on Saturday. My starting XI would be Grant - Christie, Keogh, Shackell, Warnock - Thorne, Butterfield, Hendrick - Ince, Bent, Camara

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

I wasn't there last night so I won't specifically speak about the game albeit from the general reaction it was a bad'en.

Someone above said that our defence got us the point. From my perspective we have relied on our defence far too much. They have taken responsibility for the team far more than the forwards/midfield for most if not all of the season. We have looked ponderous in midfield and wasteful up front quite regularly. I am not sure why. The only potential positive for me is that if the performance yesterday was as bad as it sounds a lot of stones are going to be turned over in an effort to root out the problem. Cant say I'm not worried at the moment. We will know a lot more all round after Saturday.

[jono]

Here is a thought .. Ince can play the free role .. He actually looked to be our only consistently dangerous player last night but if he is playing that role he needs Bent dragging the defence out of position which Martin doesn't do to the same degree. 

If martin plays then Ince needs to be on a flank. And Butterfield and Johnson sitting deep as a pair just doesn't work .. If they have to stand in as DM then it must me as a singleton 

[Papahet]

Readings goal should have been perverted, Johnson and Russell both in no mans land - Williams leaps in-between them, whereas Johnny just stand there like a tit. Absolutely no effort to stop that goal from either of the two.

Can they head a ball?

 

[Animal is a Ram]

Slept on it thoughts.

I understand the love for Martin, he's been one of the best strikers Derby has seen in my nearly 20 years of following. Last night, however, he wasn't even doing the basics. Yes, he needs runners in and around, but everything seems to have deserted him. His touch, passing, awareness, just weren't what we've come to expect from him.

Ince needed to be doing more to take the ball from Butterfield and Johnson, and also more to stop Reading waltzing straight through the middle of the park. It's a bloody good job they couldn't finish for toffee, and Grant pulled out a wonderful save.

Leaving Butterfield that deep is a waste too, although I thought he played well. Tried to get us moving forward, but there were no white shirts to pass to. I might have been tempted to haul Russell off, put Hendrick in alongside Johnson and put Ince wide, and let Jacob use that space where Ince was.

Keogh had a decent game, the only other player driving us forward. Made Shackell look like a mug, who I thought had his worst game this season. Decision making was awful, put us under pressure too many times.

Camara looked lively. Did more going forward in his 15 minutes than Russell did all game. I'd start him next game.

[Mr Tibbs]

12 minutes ago, AnimalisaRam said:

Butterfield that deep is a waste too, although I thought he played well. Tried to get us moving forward, but there were no white shirts to pass to. I might have been tempted to haul Russell off, put Hendrick in alongside Johnson and put Ince wide, and let Jacob use that space where Ince was.

For me, if we're going to persist with 4-2-3-1 then that's what needs to happen. 

Still reckon it's worth a shot playing Johnson wide left but we've now got that many players for that position we don't need another. 

[RadioactiveWaste]

Perhaps 4-2-3-1 would work better with Thorne and Baird - I know Baird isn't the level of some of the others but he can play as a DM, which it seems only he and Thorne at the club can do.

[top 6 finish]

18 hours ago, PistoldPete2 said:

18 hours ago, PistoldPete2 said:

Very attacking line up tonight. Hope we don't miss thorne too much

We did,missing Will Hughes too.

 

[rusgb]

 

A really poor and lacklustre display from the team and all individuals, let's hope it was a one-off.  My ratings:

Grant - 5 - Must have been at fault for a number of the communication breakdowns at the back. Needs to lead from there.

Christie - 6 - Has gone from 'two left feet' to 'two great feet' and puts the effort in.

Keogh - 5 - Lots of passes to Shackell as always, doesn't really help us build.

Shackell - 5 - Lots of passes to Keogh as always, doesn't really help us build.

Warnock - 5 - Soooo left footed it hurts, an occasional inside pass with the right please!

Butterfield - 5 - Looked dazed and confused at times.

Johnson - 4 - Sat far to deep to add anything.

Blackman - 6 - Showed some decent touches and the potential to link-up well.

Ince - 5 - Absent, as so often this season, needs to find a position which works for him and us.

Russell - 6 - Energy and enthusiasm, but poor first/last touch too often.

Martin - 4 - By far his worst game. Fell over lots, moaned, looked slow and jaded.

Subs:

Hendrick - 6 - Touch and influence is increasing the more he has to battle for a place.

Camara - 5 - Showed pace but failed to add anything.

If this is our worst performance of the season (& I think it will be) we will probably look back and think we were lucky to get the point.  Let's hope this is not another post-Christmas fade-out from the Rams.  We have seen enough this season to believe Saturday will be significantly better.

[Mafiabob]

Thoughts....

 

One of the rare positives for me last night was we would have lost that game last season....

 

Sounds daft ins way but I thought the defence stood tall last night and can have a bit of credit, don't get me wrong they had a couple of minor hiccups. 

 

Midfield completely overran, 3 v 2. Was like watching us playing against many who usually try that. Reading are in a false position for me. Watch out for them next season.

 

Ive been critical of Martin lately, but actually felt sorry for him in a way last night. Problem we had all the other attacking players were up with him instead of running off him... That's one reason we were so predictable and static.

 

Not one of Inces better nights, but think he's still most likely to do anything. Russell, I'm sorry but it was blind alleys all night from him.. Yes gives us energy, just would love him to be above average with final delivery... 

 

Blackman is a strong lad, and I think he could easily play down the middle for us as an alternative to Martin.

 

Lastly, the game was crying out for Darren Bent last night, two big centre backs to run in behind. Seeing as we were creating nothing thought it would have been wise to get a guy on who has scored 200 goals when we were struggling to create anything, ball over top and anything could happen. Strange that he didn't come on. 

 

Hey ho onwards and upwards, were still in good nick, just need a good win be it ugly or pretty against the Zulus.

[ben_dcfc]

Never known the ground so quiet before the game, felt as though everyone knew that performance was coming, quite similar to the Wigan game last season. Poor to start with, but for ten minutes after we scored felt as if we could win by 3 or 4. Their goal was terrible defending and after that we never looked like scoring.

Grant 6 - Made a couple of good saves 2nd half, but the defense seems so much unsure with him, lack of communication?

Christie 5 - Dodgy defensively and unable to play quickly in attack. If you want the ball back quickly, don't pass to Cyrus.

Keogh  and Shackell 5 - Defense seemed to panic every attack. From the north stand looked a definite penalty on Vydra, would it have been a red?

Warnock 6 - Wasn't great but made 2 or 3 goal saving tackles. The one near the end especially important after they'd cut through so easily.

Butterfield 5 - Never looked comfortable in that position, needs to close his legs.

Johnson 4 - Really poor, as he has been for weeks. For a player who loves barging in to opponents, he very rarely bosses the midfield.

Blackman 5 - Showed some nice touches but wasn't involved enough.

Russell 5 - Usual, decision making not good.

Ince 4 - First half found space quite often but was so weak. Often waits too long for the ball rather than attacking it.

Martin 5- Not good but feel sorry for him. Why not use his strengths, can't remember too many balls to his feet. Would be tempted to play 433 next game with Bryson to try and get the best out of Martin.

Hendrick 5 - Was never going to change the game coming on to play in a 2.

Camara 5 - Looked really hesitant, which could of cost us defensively. Can't fault him on the ball.

Obviously, it's good to see that Clement wasn't happy with the players but why didn't he change it? Butterfield and Johnson weren't working as a 2 so should have made a better change than just swapping Hendrick for Johnson and going 442.

[TheDeadlySaul]

I don't really understand how people can rate the defence poorly last night. They had to put up with constant attacks due to our non-existent midfield and I thought they largely coped well. 

Last season when we played without a holding midfielder we let in an stupid amount of goals (4 against Huddersfield and 3 against Millwall).