Derby v Reading

[Mr Tibbs]

3 minutes ago, Ewe Ram said:

I dont get this 'Martin is a good player' stuff. Yes he is, anyone can see he's a solid championship centre forward. But he's not doing it at the moment and he has been off his game for a few months. If we want promotion then I'm sorry but - no passengers! 

I do, because he is a good player, a fantastic player and one of our greater goalscorers in recent years. What I don't get is all the criticism he's getting for things he's been doing for the past 3 years. I'll accept the fact that he's under-performing and deserves to sit one or two out but not all the other bull **** that goes with it. As people have said, short memories.

Our problems are lying much deeper than Chris Martin and you're kidding yourself if you think not. There's 6 match winning offensive players on that pitch, not one, none of them have grabbed the game by the scruff of the neck. Big players that have let PC down tonight.

At the same time it seems the 4-2-3-1 didn't go smoothly with a lack of game management which PC normally gets spot on. We heard a lot about BJ being no good in a deeper role from Norwich fans and it seems that they were right. Butters arguably too deep to be effective too.

 

A bad night for us, seems like everybody else had a pretty ace night too which is annoying. Those point gaps are getting bigger above us and shorter below us! Big reaction needed Saturday, some of these players need to show us what they're made of.

[PistoldPete2]

Well I said I hoped we didn't miss thorne too much but we plainly did. Boy did we. It was totally the wrong formation without thorne. Johnson is out of position and were outnumbered in midfield. And an attack of ince, martin and Blackman is not going to score maximum points for effort is it? We desperately need to get someone in this cover for thorne cos we just can't play without him. 

[B4ev6is]

Well guys what can i say tonight display was truely shocking i never ever say this but we were lucky to get a point tonight.

But we must find a way to get the ball moving quicker we were to slow all over the pitch i feel sorry for camra barley saw the ball.

[RadioactiveWaste]

Has Baird's stock gone up tonight?

Baird holding with Johnson and Butters in their usual positions?

[MACKWORTHRAM]

We were awful tonight. Awful. Worst performance of the season. But just as important as it is too not get carried away with a good performance and a win as it is when we are awful and dont win. 

We got a point. Which is the only thing good to come out of tonight. 

Personally I thought Keogh, Shackell, Warnock and Ince were the only ones to play half decent today. I thought Ince worked his socks off. 

Just a few points id like to make. 

1. We need Carson back. Yes Grant made 2 good saves today. But he has always had that in his locker, he has always been a good shot stopper. But he doesnt command his area, he isnt vocal enough and his kicking is atrocious. Is it just a coincidence that the clean sheets have stopped since he has come back in?

2. Russell is not good enough. Im sorry. But he isnt. He has got players breathing down his neck wanting his place. He has been awful for weeks. He needed a performance tonight. But he didnt give on. Movement, passing, crossing. Just so so poor.

3. I like Bradley Johnson. But he needs dropping. He isnt at the races at the minute. I dont know why. He needs a kick up the arse. At the minute he seems undroppable. Taking him out the side could be the kick up the arse he needs. 

4. Martin is massively out of form. He isnt bringing anything to this side at the minute. I love Martin. Hes the best centre forward we have had for ages. But everything he is good at, touch, vision, passing, scoring goals. Just isnt happening. But he isnt getting any support from midfield. Which is what he needs. 

5. Anyone apart from the back 4 could have no complaints about being dropped on Saturday. 

We missed Thorne today. Massively. Our midfield was non existant. Butterfield sitting that deep is wasted. 

When Hughes is fully match fit. He walks back into this team as far as im concerned. 

I honestly have no clue what system or team Clement will go with on Saturday. But for me, id go back to 4-3-3 and go with:-

Carson, Christie, Keogh, Shackell, Warnock, Thorne, Butterfield, Bryson, Camara, Ince, Blackman. 

Subs. Grant, Baird, Weimann, Hendrick, Martin, Russell, Bent. 

Poor performance all round. It happens. We move on to Saturday where only a win will do.

 

[TheDeadlySaul]

It was a pretty awful game for us and it only really took about 5 mins for everyone to realise that it wasn't going to be our night. Midfield was awful and Reading cut through it so easily, without Thorne we just can't control the middle at all. 

Blackman and Russell were non existent in that game and spent most of the night running into nothing. Martin was also poor today and just looked like a striker with no confidence, his touch was poor, his hold up play was poor and gpt more and more frustrated throughout the night. 

I thought that once again the defence was excellent. Last season if we didn't play a holding midfielder the defence would have collapsed, but tonight they held their ground brilliantly with all the constant Reading attacks.

Camara also looked bright when he came on, a winger who can take on his man and whip in a nice cross is exactly what we needed. 

Overall it was a dire night, but be happy we got a draw and I'm sure Clement and our team of however many analysts will sort it out. 

[JAT]

52 minutes ago, Kernow said:

What changes? This 'team' has one more chance? After two results where we've got less than the majority would have suspected? Drop who? The whole team? What changes need to be made, we made changes to the system today and it didn't work, surely the changes would simply be to revert to 4-3-3 hopefully with Thorne back.

For Birmingham I'd go with the same starting team again, maybe just bringing in Thorne for Butterfield. 

Clement has been public in his criticism and I think there's only value in that if you give those criticised the opportunity to respond.  

[TheDeadlySaul]

1 minute ago, MACKWORTHRAM said:

 

1. We need Carson back. Yes Grant made 2 good saves today. But he has always had that in his locker, he has always been a good shot stopper. But he doesnt command his area, he isnt vocal enough and his kicking is atrocious. Is it just a coincidence that the clean sheets have stopped since he has come back in?

That is really harsh on Grant. He made some stunning saves from their corners that kept us in the match and his kicking has never been brilliant, but it wasn't awful tonight bar one or two. 

[JAT]

50 minutes ago, HantsRam said:

I thought that this was the game to react. This was pretty much the team that got beat at boro. So this was the reaction to a rare defeat.

Previously our reactions have been good.

This sounds not so. Although I wasn't there my good mate "down the road hants" was and texted me to say

"  we were **** tonight. Worst I've seen us play in yeats".

He's a season ticket holder. We were both going tonight but I had work to get done.PC sounds angry but also surprised. This is a big test for him. We're all a bit fretful that this is how last season started to unravel. 

Different system played tonight. 

I honestly done think it suits Butterfield which is why I'd bring in Thorne. 

[Zag zig]

1 hour ago, Alpha said:

Just play on your heels lads. 

For a minute we looked in danger of waking up but there was always somebody to make sure concentration didn't get a grip of us.

Ok so they pressed high and made playing out from the back hard. But they were so open at their back I thought any decent exchange would create quality chances.

Unfortunately we telegraphed every pass, used 3 touches where 1 would do. And the idea of a give and go was eradicated from our game by the second half. 

Defensively I thought Ince was abysmal. Left the two behind him to get 3v2. 

Warnock still has nothing to aim for when getting the ball. 

It was just crap. Sloppy, dumb crap. I've seen sharper spoons. 

They left so much space in their quest to press high. We used it, had success with it and then couldn't even reach it in the second half.

I'd almost entirely agree with this but add Ince considering he wants a central role was shocking and no way did Johnson and Butterfield look comfortable in an anchored role, too ineffective and failed too often to find a pass.

Same when Hendrick came on, just miles too deep. Wasn't helped by a surprising lack of movement in front of them by Ince and Martin. Russell tries but runs into brick walls. 

Really hope once we have Thorne back, pick who you want ahead of him, but play 4-1-2-3 no matter how we tinker with systems, it suits us better it seems.

[Ninos]

Overall a dreadful performance where Reading (in their frou frou mauve outfit) were the Brian Clough team, moving the ball on the ground with prettiness and cleverness, while we randomly cleared it long, resorted to long passes or chose the safe option of sideways and backward passes. And we failed to press them effectively with the ball while they pressed the hell out of us. The ticket was only worth the price of admission to watch Keogh's heart and the Reading passing game around our box, which in spells was really good to watch. 

Grant - 6 Made a few good stops, most of which were in a  little sequence in the second half when Reading were all over us. 

Christie - 6 Couldn't quite penetrate like he normally does but still looked class and made some good tackles although their goal did come from his side.

Keogh 8 Damn monster. They were clearly looking to take him off after his injury but he straight refused, and went back in,\. All of our good attacks seemed to begin with him. 

Shackell 7. Looked a wee bit shaky and too many hope and pray clearances for my liking.

Warnock 4 . Disagree with others on him, Everything was either back, or passed to the other team. And frankly if you cut inside on him, he looks like he's toast. Bring on Max Lowe asap. Warnock has pace going forward and he's strong in the air and he tries hard, but he's just not got that bit of magic that Christie has: the man has not an ounce of flair, and when we were craving something he offered little.

Johnson 5 - Last ditch tackles and aggression were there, but his passing was off and he drifted upfield a lot which left glaring gaps for a good passing team like Reading to exploit.

Butterfield 6 - He buzzes around and looks lively but isn't much of a defensive force and with Johnson stretched, it created for huge holes in the midfield.

Blackman 5 - Thought he was pretty much non-existent on the right wing, and should have done far better with his angled chance in the first half. 

Ince - 6 - Lively and worked his socks off, but not much end product, where he chose dodgy passes rather than taking his chances. He got open quite a lot on counters but our players never really found him. He kept trying to find Martin and it never worked.

Martin - 3 He was dreadful, he's too static and easily marked out the game. He did have a few nice flicks, but he also looked decidedly mediocre, giving the ball away or running into defenders and forcing teammates to play him balls that would get picked off by defenders. I would imagine Bent would be livid watching that, and not getting a minute of game time. Never looked like he could score. 

Russell - 4 A dire performance. Nothing was going for him, and he looked like he'd just given up at times. 

Camara - 6 He came on late in the game, but he was comfortable on the ball, looked a slight menace but he didn't have anyone to pass to really. 

Hendrick -5 The one thing that does my head in with Jeff is how he seems to deliberately put himself in a position where he can't make a tackle or win the ball; its the precise opposite to what Keogh does. When he has the ball he can pull things off but he didn't in his cameo tonight.

Thorne, and more specifically an in form Thorne  would go some way into restoring normal service. He controls the middle, and makes our passing more fluid. Although I am not a (yet) a fan of either, I would also start Blackman or Bent in the middle up front just because we look totally impotent in attack at this point. 

Kudos to PC for calling a spade a spade here, but he needs to take some blame: he chose the lineup, the formation, and the timing of the (non) substitutions. At the minute, we are a feeble attacking force, and it needs fixing. The angriest man will be Bent because he saw not one second of that game, and he was a player that perhaps could have stretched that defence. It was all too easy for them.

[Bris Vegas]

Derby County head coach Paul Clement:

"We were awful from start to finish. There's nothing positive to say about that except that maybe a point is a bonus and I don't even think we deserved that.

"It's my worst game as head coach of this club. It was poor application of the tactical plan so (it is) a question of attitude.

"I'm almost in shock and it's very difficult to explain how a team has gone 26 games and always worked hard, been resilient and given their best and then you arrive at game 27 and that happens.

"The last thing I said before they went out was about getting the fundamentals and the basics right and that obviously went in one ear and out the other because I can't pick out a player who performed tonight, we were individually and collectively poor with error after error."

[Ambitious]

It didn't feel that different to most of our games this season to be honest. 

We were average/poor but upped our points total.

It's almost like watching a Billy Davies side. 

[Sexydadbod]

 

11 minutes ago, Jean Antoine Tessier said:

For Birmingham I'd go with the same starting team again, maybe just bringing in Thorne for Butterfield. 

Clement has been public in his criticism and I think there's only value in that if you give those criticised the opportunity to respond.  

What? Butterfield has been one of our best players in recent weeks. It's Johnson that needs dropping

[Cam the Ram]

This man is a legend. Broke his nose but refused to be subbed. If Baird leaves and Martin continues to be sh*te, give that man the captaincy back. Russell gets credit for the passion he shows towards Derby, but no one comes close to Keogh.

[MACKWORTHRAM]

13 minutes ago, TheDeadlySaul said:

That is really harsh on Grant. He made some stunning saves from their corners that kept us in the match and his kicking has never been brilliant, but it wasn't awful tonight bar one or two. 

Its not. I said he made good saves. Hes a good shot stopper. 

But Carson is country miles ahead of him. 

The clean sheets have stopped. 

[Sexydadbod]

1 minute ago, Cam the Ram said:

This man is a legend. Broke his nose but refused to be subbed. If Baird leaves and Martin continues to be sh*te, give that man the captaincy back. Russell gets credit for the passion he shows towards Derby, but no one comes close to Keogh.

I love Keogh but I don't want him as captain. Let him focus on his own game. The pressure of the captaincy last season made him struggle. I'd give the captaincy to Shackell or Carson when he comes back.

[Cam the Ram]

1 minute ago, McLovin said:

I love Keogh but I don't want him as captain. Let him focus on his own game. The pressure of the captaincy last season made him struggle. I'd give the captaincy to Shackell or Carson when he comes back.

Nah, the injuries to everyone around him last season made him struggle. Wouldn't mind either of those you mentioned being captain if it were to change for any reason, but no one shows even half as much passion for Derby as Keogh does.

[Ninos]

13 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said:

Derby County head coach Paul Clement:

"We were awful from start to finish. There's nothing positive to say about that except that maybe a point is a bonus and I don't even think we deserved that.

"It's my worst game as head coach of this club. It was poor application of the tactical plan so (it is) a question of attitude.

"I'm almost in shock and it's very difficult to explain how a team has gone 26 games and always worked hard, been resilient and given their best and then you arrive at game 27 and that happens.

"The last thing I said before they went out was about getting the fundamentals and the basics right and that obviously went in one ear and out the other because I can't pick out a player who performed tonight, we were individually and collectively poor with error after error."

I agree with everything except the last sentence. Richard Keogh performed. 

[JAT]

17 minutes ago, McLovin said:

 

What? Butterfield has been one of our best players in recent weeks. It's Johnson that needs dropping

Yes Butterfield is better in the 433 but if we play 4231 then it's more suited to Johnson. 

The issue we have with playing 433 is that Martin is isolated so over time I think we will see that 4231 will be more fruitful.