Eranio sacked over allegations of racism

[Cisse]

Which is all well and good, but Rüdiger isn't from Cameroon, he's a German player, from a German upbringing. Even if you ignore the blatant outdated racial ideas and just get down to "well, in some countries their football education isn't as good at certain things", that doesn't apply to Rüdiger, and the fact he said it as though it did will mean to a lot of people that he likely just saw a black player and profiled him based entirely on that. 

Perhaps Eranio didn't mean every black defender or player, just a general opinion. I make general statements every week without meaning to offend people although I'm sure my comments could be used to get riled up by lot of people.

[Albert]

Perhaps Eranio didn't mean every black defender or player, just a general opinion. I make general statements every week without meaning to offend people although I'm sure my comments could be used to get riled up by lot of people.

He made it about a German player, simply because he was black. It was a baffling racist comment, and his "defence" made it worse. He was a good player, but oh boy has he messed up here. 

[Carl Sagan]

I've not read the thread (sorry!) but I think the incident raises an interesting societal point on when (if ever) people are allowed to make generalizations. A big success in my (publishing) industry was "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" but you could argue this is wrong and a clear case of gender-stereotyping. Should it be banned?

As examples from the past, is it OK to say Scots are tight? Is it OK to say Jews are tight? These statements were once standard. Are either/both/none allowed nowadays and if one is and one isn't, what's the difference?

Government minister Jeremy Hunt recently said that for economic success, Brits needed to work as hard as the Chinese. Should he be allowed to say that when some Brits will work harder than some Chinese? Does it make a difference that Hunt has a Chinese wife, which was one of the justficiations?

Someone was publicly branded rascist at my work place recently for saying that the Indian people we outsource jobs to were happy to work round the clock because that's their nature.

I'm surprised and disappointed by Eranio's reported comments, but I do think the goalposts are continually shifting and society has created fairly nonsensical/illogical/non-useful standards for addressing some things. Some generalizations can be useful (says he, generalizing).

 

[Anon]

All good points, but there's a clear and marked difference between all the examples you gave and what Eranio has said. It's only natural that we might generalize people from the same area as it is likely that they will share many values and traits. Could some of those generalizations be construed as offensive, yes of course, but they can at least be supported through reasoning. What Eranio has said is based entirely on the colour of the guys skin, not a shared culture, upbringing, set of values, but simply the fact that he happens to be black. The logic in that thought process suggests that no black person can ever be fully German/European and that they will always have more in common with other black people than white Europeans, even though they may speak a different language and never have set foot on the same continent.

[Albert]

I've not read the thread (sorry!) but I think the incident raises an interesting societal point on when (if ever) people are allowed to make generalizations. A big success in my (publishing) industry was "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" but you could argue this is wrong and a clear case of gender-stereotyping. Should it be banned?

As examples from the past, is it OK to say Scots are tight? Is it OK to say Jews are tight? These statements were once standard. Are either/both/none allowed nowadays and if one is and one isn't, what's the difference?

Government minister Jeremy Hunt recently said that for economic success, Brits needed to work as hard as the Chinese. Should he be allowed to say that when some Brits will work harder than some Chinese? Does it make a difference that Hunt has a Chinese wife, which was one of the justficiations?

Someone was publicly branded rascist at my work place recently for saying that the Indian people we outsource jobs to were happy to work round the clock because that's their nature.

I'm surprised and disappointed by Eranio's reported comments, but I do think the goalposts are continually shifting and society has created fairly nonsensical/illogical/non-useful standards for addressing some things. Some generalizations can be useful (says he, generalizing).

 

"Black players, when they are defenders, they often make errors because they are not able to maintain concentration,”

“They are physically strong, however, when they have to think about what they're doing they make mistakes."

When given a chance to set the record straight:

“It’s disappointing that people have created all this controversy. I didn’t offend anyone and I don’t want people to make out as if I’m racist. Anyone who knows me is well aware that I am not,"

“It irritates me to be thrown to the wolves like this. The truth is I gave an incorrect opinion, in the sense that if I’d had to time to explain I would’ve said that I meant black players have never had a school of football in tactical terms similar to ours."

“Rüdiger read the situation badly because black players are not accustomed to paying attention to certain details. If they were as detail-oriented as us, then they’d dominate the sport, because they have everything in terms of strength and technique."

If he had said "sub-saharan African players lack the same football education as their European counterparts, and it shows in that many talented athletes make more defensive errors", that would be okay. I'm sure some people would try and stir up controversy, but that would be a fair enough comment. Whether it's entirely true or not isn't really the point, but it as a generalisation is something that you could justify saying.

That's not what he said though, he seemingly said Rüdiger's mistake was because he was black, then tried to defend it by saying that black people make those mistakes because they don't have the same footballing education. That defence would have some weight if Rüdiger wasn't a German born player, of a German father, who went through a German academy. The point is that he made a generalisation about him entirely due to him being black. That is the offensive part here. 

This isn't about him saying "culturally in other countries they do things differently", this is about him making a statement about him entirely because he's black. You can talk about the line, it's details and where it exactly is all day, but Eranio went so far over it that it's details aren't visible anymore. 

[sage]

"Black players, when they are defenders, they often make errors because they are not able to maintain concentration,”

“They are physically strong, however, when they have to think about what they're doing they make mistakes."

When given a chance to set the record straight:

“It’s disappointing that people have created all this controversy. I didn’t offend anyone and I don’t want people to make out as if I’m racist. Anyone who knows me is well aware that I am not,"

“It irritates me to be thrown to the wolves like this. The truth is I gave an incorrect opinion, in the sense that if I’d had to time to explain I would’ve said that I meant black players have never had a school of football in tactical terms similar to ours."

“Rüdiger read the situation badly because black players are not accustomed to paying attention to certain details. If they were as detail-oriented as us, then they’d dominate the sport, because they have everything in terms of strength and technique."

If he had said "sub-saharan African players lack the same football education as their European counterparts, and it shows in that many talented athletes make more defensive errors", that would be okay. I'm sure some people would try and stir up controversy, but that would be a fair enough comment. Whether it's entirely true or not isn't really the point, but it as a generalisation is something that you could justify saying.

That's not what he said though, he seemingly said Rüdiger's mistake was because he was black, then tried to defend it by saying that black people make those mistakes because they don't have the same footballing education. That defence would have some weight if Rüdiger wasn't a German born player, of a German father, who went through a German academy. The point is that he made a generalisation about him entirely due to him being black. That is the offensive part here. 

This isn't about him saying "culturally in other countries they do things differently", this is about him making a statement about him entirely because he's black. You can talk about the line, it's details and where it exactly is all day, but Eranio went so far over it that it's details aren't visible anymore. 

I agree with this. Anyone of whatever race, though they are more likely to be non-white, who has grown up in a third world or even a developing country will have had a more informal football education. It is therefore not unreasonable to suggest they would be more likely to play in a natural, instinctive way rather than a disciplined, organised way.

However suggesting the same of a black player who has gone through a European football academy is racist. 

  ,    

[Van der MoodHoover]

subject A = Frank Bruno

subject B = Stephen Hawkings

 

you do the math(s)

Sorry Mos - you cannot take a single example and extrapolate to make a general point that applies to very large numbers of people. For a Frank Bruno theres a Klitscko or 2, for a Stephen Hawkings there are i am sure (although I cannot name one off top of my head) some extremely brainy black physicists.

 

The math is "The Law of Large Numbers"

[Mostyn6]

Sorry Mos - you cannot take a single example and extrapolate to make a general point that applies to very large numbers of people. For a Frank Bruno theres a Klitscko or 2, for a Stephen Hawkings there are i am sure (although I cannot name one off top of my head) some extremely brainy black physicists.

 

The math is "The Law of Large Numbers"

I wasn't being serious!

I daren't be serious on such a spiky topic! lol

[Van der MoodHoover]

I wasn't being serious!

I daren't be serious on such a spiky topic! lol

Fair play fella - have a "like". I know how you like a debate so was just joining in

[Sith Happens]

Must admit to being quite stunned by this. Firstly eranio may believe this to be true, which is wrong, but if he beleives that, thats his opinion. However the second issue for me is eranio commenting on the intelligence of someone when he has done something so stupid and voice an opinion which he knows (or should know) is going to cause offence makes him less intelligent than anyone he's expressing an opinion on.

Im sure everyone at some point in their lives has had an opinion which they had the intelligence to keep their gob shut on so as not to cause offence...

Reading his comments though i just cant help but think there is some racial ignorance going on with him....he says he isnt racist but then says 'black players have never had a school of football in tactical terms similar to ours', just the use of the word 'ours' is just wrong, like its us and them.

Makes it worse he has tried to justify his comments....

 

[Anag Ram]

Views like this are usually borne of ignorance in the sense that I suspect Eranio has known one or two black players who have under-performed and projected this across an entire racial group. I hope this set-back for him will serve to educate him and not further entrench his beliefs.

[Rampage]

All the comments about Watson, the Labour guy, Leon Brittan and the police are mesmerising to me. How no-one can be guilty of something in there amazes me, especially in a climate where people are getting into serious trouble for what appears to be much lesser 'offences'. When I was a lad, you were innocent until proven 'guilty', now you can be 'guilty' in three seconds.Totally out of order for Eranio, perceived to be one of the 'gentlemen' who played for Derby County to make such a comment, allegedly.I think that football in general has done a great deal to improve race relations.We all have a lot to learn. I once asked a policeman in the street how I was supposed to keep up with all the changes in the law. He told me that I should watch TV and I would find out that way. I doubt if anyone in Britain knows half the changes in the law that have been made in the last five years. My sister had her own shop and she tried to explain to me the volume of material that she received about regulations and health and safety. She was clearly overwhelmed by it. We have paper work to cover everything but most people have neither the time nor inclination to come to terms with it. Big Ben has the time but not the inclination. The leaning tower of Pisa has the inclination but not the time.

[Mostyn6]

are people saying concentration and intelligence are the same thing here?

[bigbadbob]

Think eranio just saw clod play and it tainted his views for good

[Dimmu]

Stimac, Eranio.. who's next?

It's **** growing older and realising people you've admired are *****.

[Srg]

I've not read the thread (sorry!) but I think the incident raises an interesting societal point on when (if ever) people are allowed to make generalizations. A big success in my (publishing) industry was "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" but you could argue this is wrong and a clear case of gender-stereotyping. Should it be banned?

As examples from the past, is it OK to say Scots are tight? Is it OK to say Jews are tight? These statements were once standard. Are either/both/none allowed nowadays and if one is and one isn't, what's the difference?

Government minister Jeremy Hunt recently said that for economic success, Brits needed to work as hard as the Chinese. Should he be allowed to say that when some Brits will work harder than some Chinese? Does it make a difference that Hunt has a Chinese wife, which was one of the justficiations?

Someone was publicly branded rascist at my work place recently for saying that the Indian people we outsource jobs to were happy to work round the clock because that's their nature.

I'm surprised and disappointed by Eranio's reported comments, but I do think the goalposts are continually shifting and society has created fairly nonsensical/illogical/non-useful standards for addressing some things. Some generalizations can be useful (says he, generalizing).

 

Think people just need to quit moaning about everything.

Someone could make any sweeping generalisation about anything to do with me and I wouldn't give a *****. They don't know me, why should I care.

This over-sensitive bullshittery has to stop. The worst thing about it, is 9/10 you see and read about it, it's always from someone who isn't a part of the supposedly offended group.

[Albert]

Think people just need to quit moaning about everything.

Someone could make any sweeping generalisation about anything to do with me and I wouldn't give a *****. They don't know me, why should I care.

This over-sensitive bullshittery has to stop. The worst thing about it, is 9/10 you see and read about it, it's always from someone who isn't a part of the supposedly offended group.

There are times you can play the "people are overreacting" card, this isn't one of them. They were offensive racist comments, there is literally no defence for what he said, and his "explanation" only made it much worse. 

[Srg]

There are times you can play the "people are overreacting" card, this isn't one of them. They were offensive racist comments, there is literally no defence for what he said, and his "explanation" only made it much worse. 

My response was to Carl Sagan and his post around people being offended over numerous small things

[Highgate]

 

No proof but there's evidence that might support it.

Such data collection is a complete waste of time and tells you nothing.  Unless you exposed each ethnic group to a lifetime of identical conditions regarding wealth, health, parenting and exposure to effective early educational techniques, then your results will tell you nothing about the actual intellectual potential of the various ethnic groups.  If you were able to control those other influential variables then your results would be entirely different. This map shows you principally which countries have a better living standard than others (apart from also suggesting that the US education system is failing).  Interestingly China, Korea and Japan score highest.  It has been suggested that children's early exposure to the complex patterns in their alphabets aids their intellectual development. 

[Grimbeard]

I agree with him.