CornwallRam

8 minutes ago, atherstoneram said:

You are correct.

OK, this is very conjectural and likely just plain wrong, but I can see a scenario where liquidation brings in more than a £30m sale.

In the sale scenario, MSD get £20m, the football creditors get c£5m, and the post admin loan and admin fees swallow the most of the rest, leaving a few coppers for HMRC and nothing for the unsecured creditors. 

However, Mel has given MSD a personal guarantee. In the event of liquidation, Mel becomes liable for the £20m secured against the stadium. The sales of the player registrations pays off the footballing creditors, leaving whatever the assets sell for to pay the rest. 

If those assets sell for more than c£5m, it means the creditors get more than a £30m bid. I think a full liquidation might struggle to sell the buildings at Moor Farm, some memorabilia, three lawnmowes and a few cars for more than £5m. However, a pheonix club buying the name, badge and goodwill might easily pay more. 

When we first went into administration, @Davidinstantly pulled the club's adverts from this forum.

At the time it felt like a bit of an overreaction. Now it looks like David won't even see 25% of what's owed - which is actually pretty disgusting. 

From that there are two takeaways:

1, @David is very smart

2, Never trust a man who bans sausages from the breakfast menu.

Is it just me, or has the world just gotten properly ridiculous in the last few years? It's almost like we're living in a computer simulation and the kid running it is getting bored and having a laugh.

As Frank Lampard is their, I wonder whether Uncle Harry is involved? When was the last time that Redknapp had any involvement in a club that didn't subsequently have massive financial problems?

1 hour ago, atherstoneram said:

 I know, that's what i said.

Sorry if I've got the wrong end of the stick, but your contention seemed to be that HMRC must have agreed a reduced repayment or we couldn't name a preferred bidder.

15 minutes ago, atherstoneram said:

The administrators have been in dialogue with HMRC otherwise they wouldn't have said HMRC are onboard so will have a good idea what they want. What is the point of naming a PB if the administrators know the bid will fail with HMRC.

We haven't named a preferred bidder.

2 hours ago, alram said:

is it obvious? because all the noises around hmrc and the new ruling would suggest that its not negotiable? they went through the courts to get the ruling, they wont throw it out on the first case

But it's still a negotiation. They might demand 100%, but with a payment plan. They might settle for 25%. None of us know.

The point is that it could be that uncertainty that is holding things up. Maybe the highest bid is contingent on HMRC settling for 25% and they're refusing to commit?

14 minutes ago, alram said:

and yet there is no preferred bidder. so if its not the hmrc bill, then what is holding it up? 

 

Q have stated a lot of things. how many of them have come to pass.

Logically, it has to be the non-fixed costs. The admin costs, post admin loan and football creditors are fixed, so all bidders must have agreed to them, or they are no longer bidders.

Then there a fairly straightforward 25/35% to the unsecured creditors or a 15 point penalty. Not a particularly complicated choice.

HMRC is obviously a negotiable cost, so it could well be that.

The other option is the stadium and MSD loan. To me, that looks super complicated. There's a charge which covers both club and stadium...Mel owns one and not the other. Then there's the question of whether to buy or lease the stadium, but if it's the latter, there could still be charge against the club. Then there's the question of how much Mel is willing to sell the stadium for - £10m and pay the £10m off himself? £20m and end up with zero after the loan is paid? £30m and recoup some of his money?

So, imo, it has to come down to HMRC, the stadium or both.

3 hours ago, one_chop said:

What's the betting that somewhere along the line one of the bidders is using funds linked to Russia? Hence the clarification of "certain details".

Sam Rushki and Andy Appleov?

25 minutes ago, Turk Thrust said:

Strange, for me this page is 985. 

That's because there were 5 pages of insults, 5 pages of libels and 5 pages of jokes which @Boyciehas hidden so he can claim they were his when he uses them. ? 

1 hour ago, DavesaRam said:

Complete curved ball given the discussion for the last few pages, so your help is needed!

I have been working on an email to Rick Parry, but need his email. I know it was mentioned on this thread, but that was about 3 billion pages ago. Can anyone help me?

Cheers in anticipation!

rparry@instevegibsonspocket.com

35 minutes ago, Unlucky Alf said:

I'm not sure but I think Q might have said it, Then again Q have said things that haven't been true, So take it as ?‍♂️

From the answer that Q gave to Rams Trust

The position with HMRC remains unchanged and has been covered in multiple previous meetings. They have requested an update which we will provide shortly. However, as we have previously advised, we have shared our draft proposal with HMRC which covered various scenarios. They were happy with the principles in that draft proposal. As previously advised, HMRC will not give formal approval to any proposal before it is in final form. We will provide that proposal once the preferred bidder is chosen and the exit strategy is confirmed.

7 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

Wigan were liquidated and only paid unsecured creditors including Hmrc 25%. They didn’t suffer any further penalties from EFL apart from the original 12 point penalty for going into admin and even that they contested. 
 

I don’t see that Hmrc preferred creditor status ( which they didn’t have at the time of Wigan) should really affect things . Provided we pay unsecured creditors 25% Efl should not punish us anymore .

I don't think the club were liquidated, it was the company that owned them. That would a restructuring plan, rather than a full liquidation...although I'm happy for someone more knowledgeable to clarify, especially if I'm wide of the mark.

21 minutes ago, TheresOnlyWanChope said:

League 2 preferable but wouldn’t Derby start lower than that? I can’t see how minus 15 in league 1 would be in anyone’s interest. Liquidation surely more likely than creditors not paid and on minus 15. Hopefully everything sorted to not incur points deduction however and we can stil be a club next year and not hamstrung with another deduction.

There was an article a few weeks ago that claimed there was an outline plan from the EFL for us to be offered a place in League 2, should liquidation be the only option. It could be complete rubbish of course.

I think liquidation and restarting as a pheonix must be under discussion. Especially if we really can start in League 2.

Unless we can find a bidder to pay the full amount to get a CVA and avoid a points deduction, I reckon pheonixing looks a better option.

Next season in League 1 with a points deduction, 6 players and a two year business plan imposed by the EFL for £25m. Or League 2, no players, but no business plan or points deduction for £5m.

The figures are obviously guesses, but you can see the basis for a discussion at least. 

1 hour ago, Foreveram said:

Take on board what your saying but do really believe Brian Clough would have stuck around for the poo show that Rooney has had to endure. If he had stuck around in the first place maybe we wouldn’t be where we are now but that’s an entirely different argument.

I think he would have stuck around. He didn't leave Derby County because we were dying, he/they left because he wanted more control. All that I've read or heard about Brian Clough indicates that he believed in justice and fairness. He was principled, within his own terms, and would have made it his business to save the club.

However bad things are now, I believe that they'd be ten times worse without Rooney.

He brought us coverage in the media, which I  believe has helped attract bidders and pressurised the EFL. He's somehow managed to make this squad of old men and boys into a mid-table one. He's been the glue which has kept this damaged club together - paying for training camps and bringing in quality free agents to play for peanuts. That means we have huge crowds and some semblance of cash flow.

We needed a manager with a big name and a resilient, bloody minded nature and that's what we've got.

I think Brian Clough or Sir Alex Ferguson could have done similar jobs (and I'm talking off field as much as on), but other than that, I can't think if anyone better than Rooney. I think there's a really good chance that the club would have folded by now without him.

4 hours ago, Tamworthram said:

Even if it were true I don’t think anyone in their right minds would believe league 2 teams could go into liquidation, reform, and remain in L2.

I don’t know what criteria they use (in Macclesfield’s case for example) but I assume the principle is that the Phoenix club has to rejoin the pyramid at a much lower level.

The guidelines are that genuine pheonix teams should drop three divisions, but the final say rests with the league that they're dropping into. 

We ought to drop into the Conference, but I believe there has been an outline discussion that we'd go into League 2. I imagine that they would consider a debt free Derby County as having far too much of a financial advantage in the Conference, along with the safety aspects of thousands of travelling fans going to some glorified pub grounds.

3 hours ago, PistoldPete said:

Well explained GoC. Also worth mentioning Rangers were part of a massive tax dodge. not just that they couldn't pay the tax bill, they had tried an elaborate scheme to avoid tax which failed. So much more of a moral hazard to let them off lightly.

Rangers then owner was, not the players, coaches, fans or even new owners.

I understand the need for deterrents, but it can't be right that the bad guys get to walk away, leaving the innocents to take the punishments.

Can you have a hero who is two years younger than yourself? If you can, he was one of mine. Turned leg spin from something boring and defensive to being attacking and exciting. RIP Shane, you were a true legend. 

Such sad news. Johno is one of the best. For the little that it's worth, my thoughts and best wishes are with him and his family. 

13 minutes ago, i-Ram said:

I know what you are saying here, I mean the bit in bold, but the legal reality is they will be doing neither of those two things. They have to accurately present the position of the Club, warts and all. To be anything but totally honest and transparent would leave them potentially open to being sued by the buyer. 

I think you're conflating the sales pitch and the paperwork.

Quantuma give us the balloons, the pearly white smile and idea that brown is a highly sought after colour. The sales contract will have the correct APR, chassis number and MOT date. 

They don't tell us that Derby County owe HMRC 28,452,380.17 or that the interest rate to MSD is 14.7%, but they would tell any serious bidders.

However, before they get to that stage, they've been telling Ashley about sell out crowds, the best academy in the Midlands and the ability to increase capacity to 47,000.

They also tell us that everything is going well and that a PB is imminent, close, almost there etc.

I remember when we first went into administration that lots of Wigan fans felt sorry for us and that our naive optimism would be severely tested. They pointed out that administration is a series of disappointments and false dawns as the professional optimism of the administrators is constantly shown up as complete rubbish by events.

I probably didn't quite appreciate it at the time, but it's so true. I think the point that many of us have missed is that the administrators are basically second hand car salesmen trying to shift that 2017 Vectra with 320k miles on the clock and dodgy weld lines across the floor. It's their job exaggerate the positives and gloss over the negatives.

Until the day we exit administration, things will be worse than Quantuma are saying.

Just now, Gritstone Tup said:

So why did Bury drop to tier 10?

Because they are not a proper pheonix club. They were formed before Bury were liquidated. 

1 hour ago, duncanjwitham said:

I don't think it works like that.  Going from the EFL's answers here (since we don't have their actual insolvency policy to look at):

http://www.leytonorientfanstrust.com/documents/LOFT_SGM_Mar17_QA.pdf

The -15 is normally applied the following season.

Interesting that it says the guidelines for  a pheonix club involve dropping no more than three divisions. 

Starting again in the Conference doesn't seem too disastrous as worse case scenarios go.