Jourdan

1 hour ago, Kokosnuss said:

As always the most imaginative defence of Warne comes down to "Needs more time" and "We just don't know" while the goalposts get moved another 3, 6, 12, 24 months down the line. Even though he's  supposed to be a promotion specialist. 

Might as well have appointed Phil Brown again at this rate. Maybe see what Aidy Boothroyd is up to? Both have achieve bigger things than Warne.

Your posts are becoming as unimaginative and one dimensional as the manager and the football you are so quick to lament.

Did you genuinely expect us to win promotion last season? All the evidence points to there having been three far superior teams who quickly found their stride and maintained an unusually high level of consistency.

Clearly our chances of promotion were a long shot at best especially when the ‘promotion specialist’ arrived needing to make up ground (anywhere from 3-7 points) on those three teams and those same three teams all went on to finish with more than 95 points. For context, we’d have needed to get 2.19 points per game for 37 games to get close.

These were very three special teams, all of which obviously benefitted from time, patience and perseverance to build. That’s all we are asking for Warne to be given, especially in the absence of the financial freedom all three of those clubs enjoyed.

Even when we were in peak form, Wednesday were producing a similar level of consistency and ended up going 7-8 games beyond that. Plymouth also had an unbeaten run of a similar length to us at one stage of the season. Of course, Ipswich too produced incredible form towards the end of last season.

Perhaps let’s put last season to bed and focus on this season and our chances of promotion. Did Plymouth see themselves breaking records and winning titles 12 months later when they were thumped at home by MK Dons on the last day of 21-22? Probably not, but it shows you why time and allowing things to take shape can be ever so important.

Can promotion be achieved in the opening six games of the season? No. Are we in an impossible position that cannot be recovered? No. We are currently only four points from first place, not an insurmountable number. We have won three games this season, only one fewer than the best performing team. Despite being nowhere near our best, something everyone has been at pains to admit.

Perhaps if we give the squad time to gel and the manager time to work things out, it will yield the football and the results we are all hoping for?

58 minutes ago, Chris_Martin said:

Just look up the ppg before and after february, theres a significant drop off. 

To say warne would've signed a player remotely close to matching what McGoldrick did for us is just delusional.

As for warnes v roseniors recruitment, they are polar opposites. Rosenior was signing players with technical ability, premier league experience, promising young players. Warne has so far (despite having less transfer restictions) signed lower end championship/league one players with very little technical ability. Playing a good style of football helps to attract players. I mean who wants to come and play a bit of head tennis and run round like a headless chicken for 90mins every week?

Given the current state of this division, we should be getting top 2, not just aiming for the play offs again. It's wide open this year with no stand out teams, even the relegated championship ones have points deductions. This is a huge oppurtunity this year and giving warne another season to see if he can improve seems like a waste. 

I don’t need to look up the PPG. Of course there would be a drop off from the kind of form that if replicated across a whole season would see us on the verge of breaking divisional records.

Nowhere did I say that Warne would sign a player to match McGoldrick’s impact? I said Rosenior would have signed a different player and we don’t know what kind of knock on effect that would have had.

Polar opposites? Who are these players with superior technical ability? Who are these promising young players? Are you sure this is the desired style of play? Could we look different in 10-15 games?

We are six games in. We don’t know how strong the league is and how difficult it will be to achieve our goals. You are just guessing. What we do know is that four points separate us and the team currently in first place, so clamouring for change so relentlessly at this stage is silly when the picture could change in 2-3 games.

3 hours ago, DCFC Kicks said:

We regressed in the simple fact that we started winning less games. That doesn't happen without a reason. To put it down to bad luck is just a cop out to me.

You can't just say "he would have signed another player", like McGoldrick was any old player. He was a one-off. Don't pretend any other player could have done what he did easily.

I'm on about the calibre of player. Hourihane, McGoldrick, NML, all have Prem experience. The majority of our transfers this season are from L1 or lower Champ teams they couldn't get into. Warne obviously doesn't have as good connections as Rooney or Rosenior, and I'll bet a lot of players didn't want to sign for us based on the style of play as well. Ok, yes, lets wait and see how Warne's signings get on, but there must be a reason these players were allowed to leave these lower Champ/L1 clubs.

You're not considering how long it would take to reverse what Warne is doing to the squad if we did change him in the summer. If he's staying 100+ games, this brutish style will be so engrained, it may take another season or two to change again. Will you be on here again saying we need to give that new manager 2 more transfer windows as well? how long will it go on?

We might not get another chance like this season. The teams are comparatively weak compared to recent L1 seasons, especially with Wigan and Reading getting points deductions.

Of course this season could be a right-off. Ipswich and Plymouth got 98 and 101 points. Ipswich only lost 4 games all season.
We've already lost 3. We shouldn't be settling for the play-offs

Our best run was 9 wins and 6 draws in 15 league games. That’s over two points per game and trending for over 100 points across a 46-game season. Inevitably there would be a drop off.

6 wins and 5 draws in 18 as a stat doesn’t tell the whole story though. I don’t dispute there were poor results and poor performances but there were also games where we played reasonably well and sometimes very well but didn’t come away with the points we deserved for various reasons. It’s a combination of factors. Not just luck, but it helps.

I am not pretending anything. McGoldrick was brilliant but it’s useless to speculate on how things would have been without him. We simply do not know, for better or worse.

The calibre and experience of said players can be very misleading though. You have to look at what they can offer now and bring to the table at present. You talk of the high level experience of these players, but how telling has it been really? Only McGoldrick consistently stood out last season. The rest looked very much like League 1 players.

An ingrained brute like style? Irreversible damage caused by Warne? No better chance at promotion? Please stop. If we are playing like brutes and in mid table in April, this might be fair. But in September? It seems completely unfounded hyperbole and scaremongering.

On 05/09/2023 at 00:49, DCFC Kicks said:

I'm including the end of last season as well. We only won 6 of the last 18 games. In my opinion the style of play has gradually regressed over that period up to now as well. 

If Liam didn't sign McGoldrick, Warne would've been sacked(if we can afford to sack him). 

He's had one transfer window and his recruitment hasn't been as good as Liam managed to do through his personal contacts alone. 

Your happy to give him over half the season? Even if it means we may have to write off another season because of it? 

I am not sure I agree that there was such a regression. We played well at times but often would shoot ourselves in the foot, have no luck or not be able to sustain that quality of play over 90 minutes. We played some of our best football of the whole season v Plymouth, Peterborough and Wednesday away, for instance. We just couldn’t hold our nerve at key moments.

If Rosenior hadn’t signed McGoldrick, he would have signed another player. Who knows how well or how badly that player would have been suited to a Warne team? It’s impossible to say.

How do you measure the recruitment by Warne against recruitment by Rosenior? Rosenior’s signings have been here for a year or more. Warne’s signings have been here for six league games or in many cases fewer. Surely a better comparison can be made in April or May next year?

I think Warne needs until the end of the season. A whole season with his own squad of players and two transfer windows to bring in the players he wants seems fair to me. 

In the summer, there will be the opportunity to bring in someone new if we feel Warne has underachieved, and from there a new manager and the club can work without the restrictions of the business plan looming large.

How will the season be a write off? Unless we are 10+ points from the play-offs, which we are not currently and unlikely to be, we’ll have something to play for right until the very end.

For Bird, Cashin, Sibley and Thompson, it will be a case of renewing their deals or selling for the best offer we can get in January. I doubt we’ll leave it in the hands of a compensation tribunal.

For all the rest, they are playing for their club futures. I think Forsyth and Waghorn will step up and get one year extensions. Everyone else is likely on their way out. 

42 minutes ago, DCFC Kicks said:

Explain why the team has got gradually worse since Warne has been here then. Shouldn't it be the opposite? He's been here 51 games now, which is long enough to demonstrate some sort of progression. 

How do you demonstrate progress six games into the season and especially when the squad has had 11 new arrivals, 4-5 significant first team outgoings, and a significant number of injuries? What are we comparing? By what objective metric exactly?

We’re actually 4 points better off now v comparable fixtures in 2022-23. Is that progression? I don’t think anyone in favour of Warne would argue that because we are only six games in, not 36. Things are still taking shape. We won’t know how much we’ve progressed until March or April next year and whether we mount and sustain a promotion challenge.

Do they hand out trophies and prize money now? How do you define progress less than 20% into the season? Final positions are decided after 46 games. 40 games from now, if we finish 6th or above, isn’t that progression?

1 minute ago, Chris_Martin said:

Oxford were very nearly relegated to league 2 about 3/4 months ago. They outplayed us at pride park. If you say they have been one good appointment away from being a threat in league one, then surely we could apply that same logic to ourselves...

We have more experienced players that have played in higher divisions, we have younger players that are more sought after, we have a better pitch, more money, bigger fanbase, better training facilities

Give the opposition some credit.

Before last season’s brush with relegation, Oxford finished 3rd, 6th and 8th in this division.

They are in a similar position to where we were in the Championship from 2014-2019. Five top half finishes in seven seasons in League 1 - so they are a few ingredients away from having the perfect dish and a few missteps from giving everyone an upset stomach.

They’ve been a difficult and awkward side to play against for the majority of their time in this division since they were promoted from League 2 in 2016.

Having players with experience of higher levels, having sought after young players and having everything bigger and better (even though we can’t spend the money we might have) doesn’t stop a team being able to win a one-off game if the opposition aren’t clicking.

These results happen up and down the divisions. Chelsea 0-1 Forest, a prime example of that.

9 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Lets settle into this league for a while longer ay? We should be better than we are currently, both positionally and footballing wise. If we aren't then we have the wrong manager - all facts point to that. We are a big club with plenty of money and support. We should be able to attract the best players at this level and hold on to our young players as they look forward to playing in the Championship with us. And yet...

All I am seeing here is opinion being dressed as fact.

@Chris_Martin

Which are these ‘worse teams with worse players’?

How do you quantify this?

Bear in mind, Wigan, Bolton and Blackpool all finished in a higher position than us last season.

Oxford have looked one good appointment and one good transfer window from being a threat in League 1 for some time.

Some of our fans would build a shrine to Brannagan before the ink was dry on his contract if he signed for us, for instance.

I think you are doing the teams we have played a disservice.

36 minutes ago, Chris_Martin said:

we were lucky to beat peterborough, and incredibly lucky to beat fleetwood at home. Could easily have 6 points less and be in the relegation zone

We could also count ourselves unlucky to not get a point or perhaps more in the three games we have lost.

A few chances and a few decisions go our way and by the same logic, we could easily have 3-4 points more and be considered flying.

Football is often down to very fine margins.

22 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Yes, but the thing is it's not his first season is it. That's what last season was supposedly for.

It might not be his first season in charge, but whether it’s your first or fifth season in charge, there is the possibility for things to go wrong.

There is the possibility for unforeseen circumstances and plans that seemed good in theory but look less good in practice.

Pre-season can only prepare for you so much. It’s not until you play some competitive football that you can see what works and what doesn’t.

The hope now is that Warne has seen this and moves to correct things.

The debate always seems to be Warne v Rosenior, but personally at this moment it’s Warne v Warne.

The manager he is v the manager he could be.

I think the start to the season has underlined that Warne needs to read the situation and adjust accordingly to save his job.

He has some reflecting and some learning to do and hopefully now is the ideal time. He has a two week break to assess the situation and see how we can get things right and move the team forward.

We have a squad set in place now until January, so he has to decide on the best eleven and the best system and style to get acceptable results and performances.

The question is whether the club and the fans will be patient enough to allow him this time to figure things out.

2 hours ago, 8Leeds said:

Weren’t we a good passing side before Liam left? A little too much passing without enough end product but a good passing side none the less.

How can you be a good passing side if there is no end product? Isn’t one meant to lead to the other? If it is not effective, is it actually good?

In the same way, is our running and pressing under Warne effective? Not always. So I wouldn’t describe us as a good pressing team, particularly. A team that tries it, for sure.

As I remember, much of our ‘good passing’ under Rosenior was in areas where the opposition were happy for us to have the ball and in positions where they knew we couldn’t hurt them.

Had we scored more goals and turned more draws and losses into wins, the feeling would be different. I don’t remember many times where we actually cut teams open with our passing and it led to goals being scored. We actually did more of this under Warne last season.

We created chances under Rosenior, yes, but we also create chances under Warne, just the build up is different and frustrating in its own way.

Who are these players that are going to play fast, vibrant, passing attacking football?

Méndez Laing, who can’t last 60 minutes and is equal measures frustrating and exciting?

Smith and Hourihane, who can only prosper on the ball when they are given the freedom of the continent?

Sibley and Barkhuizen, who can’t stay fit or find enough consistency to get a place in the team?

Cashin, who only has a sweeping long ball in his locker?

Let’s be honest, we have a squad which is not above this level and isn’t particularly blessed with technically strong players who can play good attacking football against all comers. This is why our play orbited around McGoldrick for 70% of the season previously.

The only one who is really fit for a passing team is Bird, and currently he is injured and come January, he might be on the move.

If you want to see a good passing team, @CornwallRam is right. It will need time, patience and investment.

22 minutes ago, S8TY said:

It didn't take Mac 4 to 5 years to get us playing nice stuff ?

He took over a side that was predominantly possesion type players the same Warne did , the difference is Mac tweaked it and got us scoring more and playing better.

Warne has come in and not got us playing better, this is my point, why appoint a manager who doesn't play similarly to what we had in our squad, nothing wrong with getting us fitter but I still think a good manager/coach who likes to play football on the grass would've got this team firing and what i mean by that is...playing more cohesively and controlling games more.

We are no more in control of a game whether playing Bolton a top side in this division or a Fleetwood who aren't 

The squad McClaren inherited took 4-5 years to build. Rosenior built our squad in a matter of weeks having to get what he could, and with little to no thought to the future.

That’s the point.

McClaren was able to come in and raise levels so quickly, one because he is a very good coach but also largely because all of the hard work and laying of foundations had been done and the blood, sweat and tears had been wiped away.

We are still in the blood, sweat and (a lot of) tears stage. So maybe that’s the reason why Warne hasn’t had the same impact as McClaren - because the squad still requires a lot of work due to the restrictions in place, and perhaps he will have to build those foundations.

58 minutes ago, S8TY said:

…

You can’t pine after a McClaren style team, but neglect the fact that that very team took four to five years to build and a lot of tweaking and some really tough patches to swallow beforehand.

We can all accept the football isn’t good to watch at the moment and there are issues to resolve. Maybe we need to take the pain before some joy follows.

No-one is enjoying our play at the moment, but with time, is it possible things will click? We didn’t start playing our best and most coherent football last season until November/December, but once we found our stride, we got results and played some lovely football. So let’s not pretend it’s not possible and let’s not pretend all of our good players will be bypassed.

We’re going through a tough patch at the moment but surely we should see what this team looks like when we have a settled eleven with a clear and well-informed approach?

Warne is still obviously on a fact finding mission, much like he was in his first 6-10 games in charge last autumn when people said the same things you are saying now.

We need to ride it out and see how things settle down and whether it bears any fruit in the months to come.

Let’s see where we are after 20-25 games.

It has been an unconvincing start to the season, but there’s no need to hit the panic button. Warne has two weeks now to take stock and hopefully pinpoint and work on issues. We are four points off the top, not fourteen. We have forty games to course correct, not four. Let’s not overreact.

The concerns over the performances and the style of play are valid, but equally the side isn’t settled in any way and evidently that makes performing fluently more difficult.

Injuries, suspensions, players new and old struggling to blend, some players desperately struggling for fitness and form, and of course game changing lapses by officials and experienced players - there are a multitude of issues that are hitting us hard all at once.

What can we truly read into six league games? One week, everything goes for us, the next nothing does. We need a bigger sample size and we need a more settled XI and more coherent and consistent set up before we can judge. Could this side look different with a back four and Fornah, Embleton and Thompson in midfield, for instance?

People want to press the eject button before a squad with 11 new signings and a manager 12 months into the job and still working things out genuinely finds true synergy.

Comparing us to Bolton, where Evatt has been in charge for three years and has been able to tweak and improve the team year on year, is pointless. The circumstances are completely different.

We need to give it time.

Bolton 1-2 Derby

Washington FRGS

It all comes down to ambition v strategy and which to favour.

I think we would all love to see us strategically bringing in young players with potential to grow, but honestly is it really compatible with where we are as a club?

We are one of the biggest clubs in League One, let’s not forget. How much is that level of expectation and the need to show ambition weighing on us?

We seem to be recruiting players based on the idea that it will make a statement of intent, show ambition, get people talking, and most crucially, put bums on seats.

In terms of squad building and looking to the future, we probably shouldn’t have signed Hourihane, Barkhuizen, Smith, Chester, Davies, Stearman and McGoldrick last season and in many ways we could and should have signed alternatives to Nelson, Bradley, Elder, Washington, Waghorn and so on this season if we were looking to the future.

We have built the current squad on reputation and experience, not profile and potential. I don’t think style of play is a factor. We haven’t really excelled in any style as yet, only shown flashes of potential.

However it’s like a double edged sword. On one hand, fans will say we need pedigree and experience and we are Derby County and we shouldn’t settle for being the next Exeter City. On the other hand, fans will say we want to see young players with power and pace and to see the team grow together.

When you really think about it, in the position we are in, we can’t really win. If say last summer we had filled the squad with players similar to Oduroh and said trust the process, there would have been uproar after 15 games because ultimately the expectation is still there irrespective of the strategy.

9 minutes ago, Big Trav said:

Not from my usual source so take this with a pinch of salt but this lad is clued up in the agency world and apparently we're one of the clubs wanting JCH and are prepared to offload a few to get him. One to watch either this summer or in January. 

Interesting premise, but surely if we were planning this kind of reshuffle, we would be looking at a younger forward?

Clarke-Harris is very good but he is almost 30 and while he has an excellent record in League 1 and a respectable record in the Championship and he would obviously improve us, is he a player we can build the team around moving forward?

It would be a strange one, I’d say. I think if we were going to blow our budget on a marquee signing, it would make sense to sign a player who is 23-26 and can still develop in some way.

Warne is leaving on a high then.

Peterborough 1-2 Derby

Waghorn FRGS

It’ll be interesting to see what we do in the rest of the window.

Hopefully Fornah can bring the pace, athleticism and dynamism we have been missing in midfield and hopefully John-Jules can add some spark in the forward areas.

I would be surprised to see us bring in another full back or wing back. Yes, we have lost Ward and Wilson to injury but with the limited budget, surely we will have to make use of the squad and rely on players to step in and step up, especially when Elder might nail down the left back spot given time to get match fit and settled.

Personally I would prioritise another creative player. A left winger with pace or a number 10 to link midfield and attack, especially as we don’t know how John-Jules will settle.

5 hours ago, brady1993 said:

But any way you look at it it's flawed. So you have a way of playing in mind:

1) Start by trying to sign players to fit that system, can add quality, hit the ground running and are good characters 

2) If that's not possible then you've got 4 reasonable options:

A) Hold off signings and promote from within 

B) Sign players who are more raw but can be developed into the idea you 

C) Flex around character 

D) Sign Good players who are available and re-shape tactically to what you can get 

Warne has chosen the worst of all worlds where he's rigidly sticking to a way of playing despite it not fitting what we had before and also signing players who don't fit that way of playing.

 

If Warne wanted young, athletic, dynamic players, then the recruitment team have either failed the brief or there have been obstacles or circumstances which have made attaining that kind of player more challenging.

Now given that Mark Thomas arrived earlier in 2023 and had months to plan for the summer window, it is safe to assume that there was time for Warne to get his messaging across and make sure everyone was on the same wavelength.

It seems to me that the budget has dictated what kind of player we can attract and it seems to me that the recruitment team have chosen not to bring in that idealised profile of player because the ones within our budget would leave us having to take a massive gamble on their quality.

Perhaps we are in a position where we have opted for the experienced, proven choice (Bradley, Nelson, Elder, and so on) because the players we would have recruited in an ideal world are either too expensive or too raw to build a side with promotion aspirations around.

28 minutes ago, sage said:

The plan is a high tempo passing game getting us promoted and he keeps signing old slow players.

My plan to trim my beard with a blowtorch seems sensible in comparison. 

Is it that Warne is not being sensible, or is that the budget is the difference between getting what’s desirable and getting what’s attainable?