Richard Keogh - always got a mistake in him

[Mostyn6]

20 minutes ago, Cam the Ram said:

Keogh is the common denominator in these results below in that he didn't feature in them. A win percentage of 28.6%. Now, I might be slightly off in my calculations, but I work out Keogh to have a win percentage of 45.5% throughout his time at Derby. It's good to see we'd not struggle without him .... 

I would argue that stats against the actual rivals (for promotion) are the stats that matter. Keogh has a rotter in those games. 

1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said:

I don't really understand the logic here. Are you saying one player determines a teams whole season? 

If so, and Keoghost is the the constant, then we would finish in the same league position every year? 

Was Le Tissier the reason Southampton never won anything? How about Gerrard at Liverpool was it his fault they never won the Premier League? Sanchez at Arsenal? All constants in their teams throughout unsuccessful periods.

If it is Keogh holding us back then surely this is reflected in our defensive stats?

You may think that us still being in The Championship proves your take on Keogh as being right but I would say there are more people, much higher qualified, who would say you are wrong.

 

Your weakest link holds you back and in the bigger games, he transforms from reliable-ish "top ten defender" to "not quite reliable enough to be top 1-3 defender"

25 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

So you honestly put more faith in your own judgement of players than that of McClaren and Clement, who have held coaching roles at some of the biggest clubs in the land?

I won't mention the international managers that have chosen him because they only see him playing a handful of times a season, but our manager gets to see him on a daily basis and have had him as the first name on the team sheet for the last 4 seasons, does that not tell you anything?

McClaren never got a window to get himself an alternative and Clement probably had other things on his mind.

 

[Curtains]

4 minutes ago, Cam the Ram said:

I completely understand that you don't rate Keogh, but using reasons such as "we're still in the Championship so he's bad" is just silly. I bet if I asked you to name players you'd want us to sign to replace him your list would include some people from the Championship. And as for the Wildschut goals win games comment; He's scored 2 since signing for Norwich. Russell who I'm sure you also want rid of has scored the same number as him. Of course though, because Wildschut doesn't play for us he's amazing but Russell does play for us so he's awful. Which brings us right back to my point, you regularly contradict yourself. 

No I don't but hey ho you would know 

[PodgeyRam]

1 hour ago, curtains said:

I'd say that he flatters to deceive managers.  

All out recent managers haven't covered themselves in glory have they. 

Then quite simply it's the managers fault for continuing to pick him in that case.

He's not exactly gonna say "boss, I think Shackell and Davies would be a better pairing, so why don't you drop me". 

Maybe Keogh is the ultimate litmus test? If you don't drop him, you're a rubbish manager. If you do, you're the chosen one.

[Curtains]

13 minutes ago, Cam the Ram said:

I completely understand that you don't rate Keogh, but using reasons such as "we're still in the Championship so he's bad" is just silly. I bet if I asked you to name players you'd want us to sign to replace him your list would include some people from the Championship. And as for the Wildschut goals win games comment; He's scored 2 since signing for Norwich. Russell who I'm sure you also want rid of has scored the same number as him. Of course though, because Wildschut doesn't play for us he's amazing but Russell does play for us so he's awful. Which brings us right back to my point, you regularly contradict yourself. 

Blame me for Bristol City and Sheff U  if it makes  you feel better. 

I don't play or own or manage DCFC. 

 

[G STAR RAM]

10 minutes ago, Moist One said:

I would argue that stats against the actual rivals (for promotion) are the stats that matter. Keogh has a rotter in those games. 

Your weakest link holds you back and in the bigger games, he transforms from reliable-ish "top ten defender" to "not quite reliable enough to be top 1-3 defender"

It doesn't matter who you win your games against. Get enough points and you go up/make play offs.

In 3 out of 4 seasons I believe we have had a top 6 defence. Considering it's the one area, before this season, that we have spent minimal money on I think that's pretty good.

[Wolfie20]

1 minute ago, PodgeyRam said:

Then quite simply it's the managers fault for continuing to pick him in that case.

He's not exactly gonna say "boss, I think Shackell and Davies would be a better pairing, so why don't you drop me". 

Maybe Keogh is the ultimate litmus test? If you don't drop him, you're a rubbish manager. If you do, you're the chosen one.

Or if you don't agree that, at the very least, Keogh has been and continues to be one of the best defenders at Championship level then you really haven't a clue.

[PodgeyRam]

With defensive players, I look at how many points they win us over the course of a season as opposed to how many they lose us because let's be honest, there isn't a defender in the Championship who doesn't have a clanger in them.

I seem to remember our very own Curtis Davies playing like a blind man with a walking stick in three games for Hull the season they were promoted. 

Keogh has won us more points than he's lost us this season, so as far as I'm concerned, he's alright.

[BobbyD]

I only go to the home games . Keogh has been absolutely brilliant in those so far, possibly his best form in a Rams shirt.

Thats good enough for me.

It is truly astonishing  how some posters talk about a split second event three and a half year ago as if its relevant to anything at all.

[Cam the Ram]

45 minutes ago, Moist One said:

I would argue that stats against the actual rivals (for promotion) are the stats that matter. Keogh has a rotter in those games. 

 

I agree that those games are more important, but then he doesn't have the worst stats in the world against top 6 teams either. We aren't going to win every game against the rest of the top 6, especially when we haven't finished in the top 2 so I don't think his win ratio in those games is too bad.

His total record against the top 6 in games he's featured in (I've removed 2012-13 because we weren't challenging for promotion so it was hardly games against promotion rivals):

Won - 15

Drawn - 16

Lost - 15

Goals For - 57

Goals against - 56

Games missed 3 (lost all 3)

A 32% win ratio against top 6 opposition with Keogh involved and a 0% win ratio against top 6 opposition when he wasn't.

[Sith Happens]

1 minute ago, BobbyD said:

I only go to the home games . Keogh has been absolutely brilliant in those so far, possibly his best form in a Rams shirt.

Thats good enough for me.

It is truly astonishing  how some posters talk about a split second event three and a half year ago as if its relevant to anything at all.

Hear hear, and they also fail to blame other players despite the fact we played against 10 men for a good portion of the game. It'd OK to blame Keogh for his clearance, but Forsyth and bucko get away with it despite messing around with the ball, and no one mentions our midfield or forward line for failing to score.

We lost as a team.

[Mostyn6]

53 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

It doesn't matter who you win your games against. Get enough points and you go up/make play offs.

In 3 out of 4 seasons I believe we have had a top 6 defence. Considering it's the one area, before this season, that we have spent minimal money on I think that's pretty good.

It does matter in real terms, and when the points differences could be the points lost against the teams above us. The other side is the argument of play off first leg vs Hull, I'd argue that it does matter who you win against.

23 minutes ago, Cam the Ram said:

I agree that those games are more important, but then he doesn't have the worst stats in the world against top 6 teams either. We aren't going to win every game against the rest of the top 6, especially when we haven't finished in the top 2 so I don't think his win ratio in those games is too bad.

His total record against the top 6 in games he's featured in (I've removed 2012-13 because we weren't challenging for promotion so it was hardly games against promotion rivals):

Won - 15

Drawn - 16

Lost - 15

Goals For - 57

Goals against - 56

Games missed 3 (lost all 3)

A 32% win ratio against top 6 opposition with Keogh involved and a 0% win ratio against top 6 opposition when he wasn't.

Interesting stats. 50/50 points haulage means 3rd-5th. 

[swadieram]

Just looking back , in may I posted we will never win anything with him !  I rest my case ! 

[rynny]

4 hours ago, Moist One said:

I would argue that stats against the actual rivals (for promotion) are the stats that matter. Keogh has a rotter in those games. 

In 14/15 Watford had the least points against the top 8 and we had the most. I haven't checked other seasons so can't say whether or not that was a one off season.

[DEL]

2 hours ago, swadieram said:

Just looking back , in may I posted we will never win anything with him !  I rest my case ! 

Surprise surprise you pipe up since 27th August. Keogh is our BEST CB so far this season and that is a MASSIVE FACT. 

[Lokidoki]

6 hours ago, BobbyD said:

Keogh has been absolutely brilliant in those so far, possibly his best form in a Rams shirt

What about the Wolves game? Makes a mistake then again runs round like his brain is on fire for the next hour.

Selective amnesia and so with the stats. they don't recall or show the errors and as for Wembley - perhaps it was that crucial final error - and yes I blame Bucko and Fozzie too - that has made a mark in his mind somehow?

[Woodypecker]

Yes, Keogh's a whole-hearted player, (mostly) good at this level - but a poor leader and evidentially, ultimately unable to lead us as high as we want to go. 

I.am not a bandwagon jumper, I felt (and said) that we needed to move him on after the 0-3 Reading debacle at home at the season end, a couple of years ago. 

Teams (even newbies like Sheffield Utd) study his habits & frailties and expose them. Got done for the penalty in a lunge, caught out upfield (Like Baird did) for another goal. No, he is not alone in his predictability.

Yes I do recall the problem when a previous manager gave the captaincy to someone else. Wrong player appointed - and Keogh left in situ. Dohh! Yes I know the current midfield is lumbering and lacks pace & bite.

There is an inadequacy / complacency malaise rooted in this club's squad and I believe Rowett will have to alter the leadership and defensive make-up to deliver a more resilient, consistent side that palpably fights for every ball and every point, for every minute of every game, as we STILL do not have these basics. 

He will have to pick one out of the pack and thrust him forwards. Perhaps Wisdom, or Davies? Someone has to find a voice, to take players to their peak, it just does not happen out there.

I have come to suspect that we have too many leaders on the pitch! We have spent several years poaching captains from other clubs, players with achievements and awards at previous clubs...who continue to disappoint. Perhaps they just cannot frame a mentality around one personality on the pitch? 

Baird, Pearce, Shackell, Davies, Huddlestone, Keogh of course, and others...all subsumed, strangely, in this disjointed, fade-out mentality.

I would be surprised if Rowett does not make the change sooner or later...and if he does not, am resigned to more spells of mid-table mediocrity.

[Mostyn6]

7 hours ago, DEL said:

Surprise surprise you pipe up since 27th August. Keogh is our BEST CB so far this season and that is a MASSIVE FACT. 

that's like saying Syphillis is a better disease than AIDS

[Mostyn6]

7 hours ago, DEL said:

Surprise surprise you pipe up since 27th August. Keogh is our BEST CB so far this season and that is a MASSIVE FACT. 

 

[Spanish]

13 hours ago, BobbyD said:

I only go to the home games . Keogh has been absolutely brilliant in those so far, possibly his best form in a Rams shirt.

Thats good enough for me.

It is truly astonishing  how some posters talk about a split second event three and a half year ago as if its relevant to anything at all.

not having a go at your quite reasonable post but his performance on Saturday was an indication to me that his'powers' are diminishing.  1 on 1 against a quick forward and he is lost.  He may need an increasing level of protection that we are unable to afford.  Even Curtis who had a shocker also could see that taking a booking rather than placing keo in a 1 on 1 situation again

[unclej]

10 hours ago, swadieram said:

Just looking back , in may I posted we will never win anything with him !  I rest my case ! 

You can't yet rest your case as the worst is to come...