Richard Keogh - always got a mistake in him

[bcnram]

2 hours ago, RamNut said:

I just find the obsessive criticism of individual players to be very unpleasant. Whether it be keogh, bryson, martin, russell, christie, shackell, huddlestone, etc.

the supposed keogh errors v bristol are blown out of all proportion. 

The back header was slightly short. Carson dealt with it. It cost us nothing. You could see the same thing from any other defender. You see short back passes, miss kicks from keepers. It happens. 

the penalty wasn't a big deal for me. Ed dawes was screaming and lambasting keogh and this has set the tone for much of the over reaction. We expect midfielders and defenders to make blocks and tackles, but nowadays when a defender sticks a leg out you get the ridiculous comment that the striker is entitled to go over. Utter rubbish. it was unfortunate. on another day he would have nicked the ball. its about split seconds.

rowett did keogh no favours in his comments on the fourth goal and thats a sign of a manager under pressure starting to blame individuals . It was hardly a 2 v 1 as he said. The 1 was in acres of space and the 2 had 50 yards to run to catch up. Thats not a 2 v 1. Having said that when keogh did catch up, i would like him then to have carried on and made another challenge in the box. He might then have given away another penalty, and the critics would be screaming about that. Personally i'd rather he made the challenge and risked it. you read laughable stuff on here to the effect that if a defender makes a tackle then it is a sign of failure. 

Dave mackay would have sniffed that out with a classic sliding tackle. A modern ref would probably then give a penalty whether there is a foul or not. Thats the modern game, and it looks more like netball at times.

It was Paolo Maldini who said "if I have to make a tackle then I have already made a mistake". I am guessing that this was a slight exaggeration to make the point that positioning and reading of the game are some of the main skills that a defender needs to have to be good at his job. I am generally OK with Keogh but he does drive me a bit potty with some of the stuff that he does. Just one example was the penalty at Bristol. He had no need to make the tackle. The Bristol player was dancing around inviting him to do it and he was sucked in. He is certainly not the brightest defender we have ever had at Derby. 

Regarding Dave Mackay, now there was a man who could read a game and he loved to make a tackle - different era though as you point out.

[TuffLuff]

47 minutes ago, curtains said:

I did and I agree.  

I hope he is successful .

He has a massive job on his hands at Derby and the first thing to address is conceding goals away from home. 

Regarding Keogh I love the guy but he needs to do his job like the rest of the team and to make out he is some sort of super star all things DCFC is wrong as all of our players in the first 18 and the rest of the squad are just as important like Shackell for instance and Zanzala and Ethan Wassall.  

Its a team game and a club game. 

Lets stick together as Fans as well. 

You've hit the nail on the head without realising it though. It's a team game, and we can't defend as one over 90 minutes. The attackers don't protect the midfield who then are being pushed out of position, which means the defenders then get pushed out of position because the midfield aren't where they should be. This isn't a new thing either it's been the problem for 2 or 3. Weve got good defensive players but we aren't a defensive unit.

[Lokidoki]

13 minutes ago, bcnram said:

Regarding Dave Mackay, now there was a man who could read a game and he loved to make a tackle - different era though as you point out.

He had what was called in the day, "timing"  and so did Paul McGrath, who was quite pedestrian...

[richinspain]

Is this the right room for an argument?

[rynny]

13 hours ago, Lokidoki said:

But he makes at least one mistake a match often resulting in a goal. If they all did that we would be losing on average about 7 goals a match.

You say I haven't read what you wrote properly, so please explain what this poat means. To me you are saying he makes at least 1 mistake each game. And often that mistake leads to a goal. Are you saying that he doesn't make a mistake every game then? I'm not sure what you are getting at if people have read that post wrong?

[cannable]

1 hour ago, bcnram said:

It was Paolo Maldini who said "if I have to make a tackle then I have already made a mistake". I am guessing that this was a slight exaggeration to make the point that positioning and reading of the game are some of the main skills that a defender needs to have to be good at his job. I am generally OK with Keogh but he does drive me a bit potty with some of the stuff that he does. Just one example was the penalty at Bristol. He had no need to make the tackle. The Bristol player was dancing around inviting him to do it and he was sucked in. He is certainly not the brightest defender we have ever had at Derby. 

Regarding Dave Mackay, now there was a man who could read a game and he loved to make a tackle - different era though as you point out.

It's alright Maldini saying that but that was for a Milan side who would literally spend hours have situations shouted at them in training and they'd have to alter their shape to suit.

They were set up to defend proactively. They didn't need to tackle because they were all about shape. 

Keogh's attributes are his pace and ability on the ball. He suits a team who want to be the protagonists of the game and thus a team that HAS to be reactive defensively. 

[Lokidoki]

This is a genuine "read my lips" moment. Page 140.  the "poat" reads (sic) "He is consistently one of our best players." and my statement was quite obvious.  In your response you wrote:

23 minutes ago, rynny said:

To me you are saying he makes at least 1 mistake each game. And often that mistake leads to a goal.

and you have it absolutely correct.

Therefore, are you mixing this up with your other response; "If he makes at least one mistake a match, go through and point them out because I seem to be missing them."

To which I responded in detail.

Now in this detailed post I am actually referring to my statement early on in the thread which you have not gone back to, This is my fault as I am assuming you are following the thread, which you cannot have done. I stated this.

"The problem is the consistency and frequency of the mistakes. This game is all about making few mistakes; the better players make less. As a team, the less mistakes you make and the more chances you take the greater the team; it's a very simple formula."  

So in summary. I think RK makes too many mistakes. Because of his defensive position it gets punished. I have given examples and also shown that there is another exploitable weakness when he moves over to his left. He also loses his head in a match too often which is not good for the team and bad when you are captain. Apart from losing his rag; these are all footballing issues and I think most opposition teams are very well aware of them and take full advantage.

In bold so you only have to read this bit.

[rynny]

2 hours ago, Lokidoki said:

This is a genuine "read my lips" moment. Page 140.  the "poat" reads (sic) "He is consistently one of our best players." and my statement was quite obvious.  In your response you wrote:

and you have it absolutely correct.

Therefore, are you mixing this up with your other response; "If he makes at least one mistake a match, go through and point them out because I seem to be missing them."

To which I responded in detail.

Now in this detailed post I am actually referring to my statement early on in the thread which you have not gone back to, This is my fault as I am assuming you are following the thread, which you cannot have done. I stated this.

"The problem is the consistency and frequency of the mistakes. This game is all about making few mistakes; the better players make less. As a team, the less mistakes you make and the more chances you take the greater the team; it's a very simple formula."  

So in summary. I think RK makes too many mistakes. Because of his defensive position it gets punished. I have given examples and also shown that there is another exploitable weakness when he moves over to his left. He also loses his head in a match too often which is not good for the team and bad when you are captain. Apart from losing his rag; these are all footballing issues and I think most opposition teams are very well aware of them and take full advantage.

In bold so you only have to read this bit.

So to make things abundantly clear that when you wrote "But he makes at least one mistake a match often resulting in a goal. If they all did that we would be losing on average about 7 goals a match" your but should have been an if.

Just to clarify that if your post had started if I wouldn't have made any comment, however your post started "but he makes at least one mistake a match" therefore it is down to your own incompetence that people are misreading your post, because you had actually made the mistake and not people, myself included, reading.

So thank you for you pointless condesending remarks, and accusations that appear.

[bcnram]

2 hours ago, cannable said:

It's alright Maldini saying that but that was for a Milan side who would literally spend hours have situations shouted at them in training and they'd have to alter their shape to suit.

They were set up to defend proactively. They didn't need to tackle because they were all about shape. 

Keogh's attributes are his pace and ability on the ball. He suits a team who want to be the protagonists of the game and thus a team that HAS to be reactive defensively. 

And that my friend is the defence of chaos. Any coach worth listening to about defending will tell you that line one, page one in the book of defending effectively is 'keep your shape'. Line two is 'don't get dragged out of position'. 

It doesn't matter whether it was Milan or Margate, defending is about keeping your shape, don't get dragged out of position, don't dive in or even tackle unnecessarily particularly in the area, be aware of what is happening around you and lastly, don't be afraid to stand still, because that is one of the hardest things to acquire as a defender.

[bcnram]

3 hours ago, Lokidoki said:

He had what was called in the day, "timing"  and so did Paul McGrath, who was quite pedestrian...

It was a privilege to have watched them, the timing came from being able to read the game; beautiful players.

[Curtains]

4 minutes ago, bcnram said:

It was a privilege to have watched them, the timing came from being able to read the game; beautiful players.

Taribo West was a brilliant defender in my eyes .

 

[cannable]

9 minutes ago, bcnram said:

And that my friend is the defence of chaos. Any coach worth listening to about defending will tell you that line one, page one in the book of defending effectively is 'keep your shape'. Line two is 'don't get dragged out of position'. 

It doesn't matter whether it was Milan or Margate, defending is about keeping your shape, don't get dragged out of position, don't dive in or even tackle unnecessarily particularly in the area, be aware of what is happening around you and lastly, don't be afraid to stand still, because that is one of the hardest things to acquire as a defender.

Defending under spells of pressure, yes.

A style of football that makes you prone to be countered… well shape isn't going to help you there because the very idea of a counter-attack is to catch them out of shape. 

[bcnram]

5 minutes ago, cannable said:

Defending under spells of pressure, yes.

A style of football that makes you prone to be countered… well shape isn't going to help you there because the very idea of a counter-attack is to catch them out of shape. 

Shape, shape, shape, shape.......always shape. :-) 

[Lokidoki]

36 minutes ago, rynny said:

So to make things abundantly clear that when you wrote "But he makes at least one mistake a match often resulting in a goal. If they all did that we would be losing on average about 7 goals a match" your but should have been an if.

My words began with "but" and your interpretation of it began with an if. In the context of each point the both are pretty much the same.

I have factually pointed out that he makes at least a mistake per match so the "but" is correct. So I doubt my competence mate. If you had not taken a high (is it 'cos your a mod?) and mighty huff then we would not have had need for this dialogue. I'm sure that in all the many discussions that go on here, the "ifs" and "buts" have not made that much of a difference. What may have been the difference was the criticism of RK's football (not the person - note) and that someone came back and begged to differ with you.

A also think you should look up condescending; I have had to make it career issue not to patronise anyone when making a case; that is until now.

[ollycutts1982]

31 minutes ago, curtains said:

Taribo West was a brilliant defender in my eyes .

 

Thanks be to god for delivering Taribo to us, also thanks to Taribo for keeping us up. I love Taribo West. 

[rynny]

7 minutes ago, Lokidoki said:

My words began with "but" and your interpretation of it began with an if. In the context of each point the both are pretty much the same.

I have factually pointed out that he makes at least a mistake per match so the "but" is correct. So I doubt my competence mate. If you had not taken a high (is it 'cos your a mod?) and mighty huff then we would not have had need for this dialogue. I'm sure that in all the many discussions that go on here, the "ifs" and "buts" have not made that much of a difference. What may have been the difference was the criticism of RK's football (not the person - note) and that someone came back and begged to differ with you.

A also think you should look up condescending; I have had to make it career issue not to patronise anyone when making a case; that is until now.

Me being a mod makes no difference. You said he makes a mistake every game, I asked you to prove it, show me this at least one mistake per a game that makes. Where was it in tje Sunderland game? Where was the mistake against Hull, Preston etc. You then have accused me of misinterpreting your post, then accused me of not reading your post correctly, you have then said that I do not even read your posts. You then put a part in bold, and to make it easier to see what your point was. That is when I accused you of being condesending, if that isn't condesending then I do not know what is.

My interpretation was not if, you changed it to if in your last post. There is a big difference between but and if in this context. If he makes a mistake a game it costs a goal, or but he makes a mistake a game and it costs a goal. One is saying that he makes mistakes some of the time the other, that you wrote, refers to every game. And it seems that I am not the only one who had the same interpretation, yet you only quoted me, is that because I am a mod?

[Lokidoki]

12 minutes ago, rynny said:

Where was it in tje Sunderland game? Where was the mistake against Hull, Preston etc

TBH I did not even research any more as the examples I quoted were profound enough. It is the basis of this 140 odd page thread and not just my unique way of thinking.

What I did discover is, to me, as perplexing, as I had not noticed how poor he was (RK) on the left until I looked at the match statistics and married them to the video, which we can all do if we have the time.

I suggest that you check out our dialogue as I cut and pasted the words and did not change them in anyway. I checked all the sequence of our discussion and they are in the order so I stand by what I say.

My apologies for being patronising - you got both barrels. Being a mod has no bearing on my reasoning I just responded to your apparent aggression.

 

 

 

[ramma]

Just heard his interview on BBC. Guys talking out his arse. 

[Tamworthram]

2 minutes ago, ramma said:

Just heard his interview on BBC. Guys talking out his arse. 

care to elaborate?

[Alph]

Still better than every CB that's partnered him.

Where's the Davies thread? He's made a mistake or two in most games this season.