Palestine

[Mostyn6]

https://fb.watch/obnfrZ_A7e/

 

[Highgate]

6 hours ago, The Last Post said:

My post was sort of tongue in cheek with a little bit of serious connotation thrown in, Back in days of yore stealing land, Raping and pillaging, Slaughtering people and taking of slaves was a common occurrence, Was it down to education/necessity or greed, Before the Romans turned up we the natives would do the above to each other, We weren't Britons then just a mish mash of different tribes.

The same can be said for other lands/peoples, If anything the Romans/Normans taught us one thing...there's riches out there to be had, The Spanish employed a tactic of burn/slaughter and we followed suit, History is over flowing with Countries occupying other lands.

Sorry to go off topic, But what Israel are doing is that 2000 years of history hasn't taught them anything other than...do to them as they would do unto you...only worse 😒  

Yeah, I can't argue that history isn't filled with example of groups of people being appalling to one another.  And of course violence breeds violence. It's hard to think of the barbaric attack by Hamas on Oct.7 without thinking of the line in an Auden poem which read;

'Those to whom evil is done, do evil in return.'

The decades long unjust treatment of the Palestinian people, creates Hamas, and their violence brings about further violence from the Israelis. The current relentless bombing of Gaza will result in more violence in return, and the cycle will continue on and on with no end in sight. 

[Highgate]

10 hours ago, ramit said:

Wouldn't work, we have a low tolerance for religious types, as we are Christian by name only.  I wish there were fewer here than are now, we have had a massive influx of immigrants, now standing at 17% and rising, not counting many of the foreign workers.  Also, whaling is fine, wailing is not.😉

Nearly 50% of Israeli Jews consider themselves secular. It clearly can't be a religious conflict for them. Which leaves a smaller glimmer of hope for the future.  We should start a thread on whaling sometime!

[ramit]

11 hours ago, kevinhectoring said:

The Economist has said that Netenyahu has  for years tolerated Hamas because it allows him to refuse peace talks. That’s credible enough and has come from several sources. 
 

But your suggestion that there was a cunning plan to allow Hamas to inflict such horror on 7/10 is not credible.  Not least because that would have required senior IDF officers to have participated in the conspiracy. No way 

I don't agree.  It would not require senior IDF officers to have participated in the conspiracy, only to follow orders.

“Theirs not to make reply / Theirs not to reason why / Theirs but to do and die.”

[jono]

2 hours ago, Highgate said:

Of that there is no doubt at all.  

The rest is a bit more dubious in my view.  For what was the rule of law instigated, for the good of the conquered or to make them easier to rule? The Indian railways are often held up as a benefit to the benighted Indians, as if unconquered nations could never build a railway. But in reality, they were payed for by Indian taxes (earning British shareholders enormous profits) and they always seemed to head towards a port, all the more convenient to extract raw materials out of India. They were never built for the Indians but rather to make India a profitable and governable colony, the fact that have inadvertently benefited Indians afterwards is a side-effect.  Yes Britain led the world in abolition, but also led the world, by volume, in slavery and bizarrely in reparations for slaveholders too. 

I think the reason why the Empire is heavily scrutinized and criticized in many quarters is, partially at least, is because by many others it is still seen as something to celebrate or be proud of, so therefore the reaction is to try to explain why those sort of feelings should be inappropriate. 

I think you underestimate the level of intelligence possessed by Everyman. Of course there are those with a jingoistic/ nationalist view of these things, and we would both agree they are a “type” that hasn’t joined the dots or  have an innate bigotry. (As there are those with an opposing axe to grind)

The reality, from my perspective, is that most of us know perfectly well that the empire had its dark side and readily accept it wasn’t all beneficence and roses.

The compromises made to achieve abolition were systemic and in the light of the times, the right thing to do in order to achieve the objective. It happens now, sops in order to bring the baby home without derailing the engine. The thing is we HAVE learned from our history. I would argue that Africa and India are both now struggling as to how they deal with Chinese influence because you can see in stark relief that there is a repeating theme post empire, and that is before we even get to endemic corruption. 

You and I are not on the same plane of the political spectrum, and whilst we are bound to disagree with each other in some areas, I know that I was educated to question, examine and draw my own conclusions far beyond nationalistic propaganda. The “anti imperialists” make many valid points but in my opinion many of those suppositions are part of a larger political end game, rather than just reflecting on history and the lessons it can teach.

[Archied]

3 hours ago, Alpha said:

It's been far too peaceful considering the numbers and it makes it hard for them to be "Hamas supporters"

I remember the BLM vandalism. As a history geek the whole tearing down statues seemed stupid to me. 

Like, you pulled down a statue of a man of the times who used slavery to build x and x in Bristol. But he still did it. You've not erased the history. X was still built and funded based on slavery. Shouldn't we give context rather than destroy? Add to our culture instead of deny it? I dunno, I remember that was a controversial topic. 

Another funny thing is apparently in video games there's something about not showing the swastika. That made me giggle. We don't want Nazis being offensive. 

But plenty of messages are going around asking protesters to respect the laws and customs of the countries they're in. Don't play into the hands of people like Braverman. I know though that there will be idiots and racists that see anything like this as a chance to spread their hatred. 

GB News is funny. I visited my uncle last night and he always has it on. It's like a cliché. Hate March! Immigrants!  Free housing for immigrants! NHS crisis due to migration! 2m rapists cross the border every day! 

Bloomin' heck. No wonder my Uncle is a miserable cnut who doesn't go out. He thinks there a Romanian gypsy waiting to kill him and sell his organs.

Cheerful stuff!

Was James shnieder not on ( he usually is ) he is left wing , he is Jewish and speaks passionately about the marching being positive and justified , in fact he has attended them , he calls for ceasefire , is very anti the Israel policy that is happening now and also in the past and stands up for Palestinian rights , 

My feel is most presenters on gb news are not on the left but make no mistake the left and both sides of any issue are always on and good enlightening and challenging arguments are put forward ,

only news I watch now as it’s the only place I get to hear every side of issues 🤷🏻‍♂️

Edited November 8, 2023 by Archied

[Alph]

52 minutes ago, Archied said:

Was James shnieder not on ( he usually is ) he is left wing , he is Jewish and speaks passionately about the marching being positive and justified , in fact he has attended them , he calls for ceasefire , is very anti the Israel policy that is happening now and also in the past and stands up for Palestinian rights , 

My feel is most presenters on gb news are not on the left but make no mistake the left and both sides of any issue are always on and good enlightening and challenging arguments are put forward ,

only news I watch now as it’s the only place I get to hear every side of issues 🤷🏻‍♂️

Last I saw of James Schneider was when he wasn't even allowed to speak when Nadine something or other just wanted spout off on a nonsense rant which was one of the most ignorant piece of coverage you'll see on this conflict. He took it like a champ but he clearly was only there to be beat up by arse lickers. 

I only see GB News when I visit my uncle so it's the same show every week. And it's usually something like "Are our borders open to terrorists" and "Housing crisis cripples hard working British people". And then you get people who look like they've never been outside ranting about the collapse of Britain. 

[jono]

17 minutes ago, Alpha said:

Last I saw of James Schneider was when he wasn't even allowed to speak when Nadine something or other just wanted spout off on a nonsense rant which was one of the most ignorant piece of coverage you'll see on this conflict. He took it like a champ but he clearly was only there to be beat up by arse lickers. 

I only see GB News when I visit my uncle so it's the same show every week. And it's usually something like "Are our borders open to terrorists" and "Housing crisis cripples hard working British people". And then you get people who look like they've never been outside ranting about the collapse of Britain. 

As far as I’m concerned all news media fell apart once Redhead and Timpson retired. Downhill since then. Editorial “messages” from all sides, instead of information asking you to draw a conclusion of your own.

BBC world service still has some vestiges of information giving but that’s about it.

[Alph]

4 hours ago, Mostyn6 said:

https://fb.watch/obnfrZ_A7e/

 

BlackRock and Vanguard. I've seen somebody on here talk about them before. Might have been you but also I think maybe @Srg. If my memory serves

I mean it just takes us back to what we know anyway. This isn't about destroying Hamas. Any idiot can see that this wouldn't destroy Hamas. But nobody who defends Israel at every turn wants consider what else it's about. 

American Imperialism. Always. The war mongering, arms trading, empire building world police. They admit it. Biden admitted it in 1986. Netenyahu... Props up Hamas, talks about "Peace Corridors" and "nuclear threat to (oil rich) Iran. 

Israel. The American key to the middle east. 

@uttoxram75has posted 3 times in this thread the goldmine Palestinians are blocking.

Which is why if Hamas surrendered tomorrow there would still be Israeli provocation. Another enemy to provoke America would appear. Even if they have to make one up. Again.

Because America needs an 'in'. 

I mean they're not the only player of course. Usually there's Russian influence to oppose them. 

We're all fighting in these b******* ever lasting chess game. They've got to control everything. 

Edited November 8, 2023 by Alpha

[GboroRam]

Going back to Palestine for a minute. 

I was thinking about the human shield, about who would kill an innocent civilian. 

On the one hand you've got people who believe there are no innocent people being killed. They're either terrorists, apologists for terrorists, guilty by association with terrorists or responsible for the terrorist leaders. Whatever justification they have, they've convinced themselves that they don't count as innocent. Guilt is unequivocal, and viewing them as "human animals" means they can be treated with impunity. They don't count as deserving life. 

On the other hand, there's a group who have weighed up the equation, which holds more value - the life of an unknown number of innocent palestinians, vs the death of a much smaller number of Hamas supporters - and have decided the deaths hold greater value than the lives. Now that speaks to me of their value of those innocent lives. 

[Archied]

37 minutes ago, Alpha said:

Last I saw of James Schneider was when he wasn't even allowed to speak when Nadine something or other just wanted spout off on a nonsense rant which was one of the most ignorant piece of coverage you'll see on this conflict. He took it like a champ but he clearly was only there to be beat up by arse lickers. 

I only see GB News when I visit my uncle so it's the same show every week. And it's usually something like "Are our borders open to terrorists" and "Housing crisis cripples hard working British people". And then you get people who look like they've never been outside ranting about the collapse of Britain. 

Can’t deny it’s like that sometimes but the shoe is often on the other foot and you get real passionate debate from all sides 

[Rev]

Over 4000 children have died so far in Gaza, according to the supplied figures. 

Either Israel aren't targeting the strikes as clinically as they want us to believe, or Hamas have the most engaged Cubs and Scout movement in history.

[EtoileSportiveDeDerby]

57 minutes ago, Rev said:

Over 4000 children have died so far in Gaza, according to the supplied figures. 

Either Israel aren't targeting the strikes as clinically as they want us to believe, or Hamas have the most engaged Cubs and Scout movement in history.

I think it as simple as if there is a sniff of Hamas, a tunnel, they just blast it. If, sadly, children, civilians happen to live or be there that’s curtains for them. Gaza city has started to look like Aleppo

[Comrade 86]

18 minutes ago, EtoileSportiveDeDerby said:

I think it as simple as if there is a sniff of Hamas, a tunnel, they just blast it. If, sadly, children, civilians happen to live or be there that’s curtains for them. Gaza city has started to look like Aleppo

It has and lest we forget, by the end, Aleppo had been bombed for 5 years.

It's not even been 30 days for Gaza yet.

 

[Alph]

It's a horrible thought that so many leaders in Europe are just lapdogs. 

Whatever your take on the entire conflict, is there anybody on this forum or anywhere that thinks Israel's attack on Gaza is justified? 

Why are Jews in Israel more sympathetic to Gaza than Sunak and European leaders? 

Why are the people calling for a ceasefire the problem here? The idea that this is destroying Hamas but nobody can explain how it destroys Hamas. 

We're definitely saying that the safety of Israeli's is more important than the safety of Palestinians. An Israeli life is worth more than a Palestinian one. I guess we don't know by how much yet. 

The people who question the integrity and motives of those demanding ceasefire, such as Nadine Dorres, come out with a straight face and say "but these numbers are released by the Gaza health ministry which is controlled by Hamas." 

Ok Nadine. Let's roll with that. Let's say the numbers have been doubled. Does 2,000 dead children make it right? What about 1,000? 100? Let's say 100 children have died. 100 children have died for how many Hamas militants? The Dunblane Massacre? Remember that? If it had served a more noble goal then would we be ok with that? 

I suppose if these kids are faces on the other side of the world that you don't have to look at then it's easy to say "collateral damage". 

The real thugs are the ones calling for a ceasefire. She's crying more about "From the River To the Sea" than dead kids. 

[Highgate]

4 hours ago, jono said:

The reality, from my perspective, is that most of us know perfectly well that the empire had its dark side and readily accept it wasn’t all beneficence and roses.

The compromises made to achieve abolition were systemic and in the light of the times, the right thing to do in order to achieve the objective. It happens now, sops in order to bring the baby home without derailing the engine. The thing is we HAVE learned from our history. I would argue that Africa and India are both now struggling as to how they deal with Chinese influence because you can see in stark relief that there is a repeating theme post empire, and that is before we even get to endemic corruption. 

You and I are not on the same plane of the political spectrum, and whilst we are bound to disagree with each other in some areas, I know that I was educated to question, examine and draw my own conclusions far beyond nationalistic propaganda. The “anti imperialists” make many valid points but in my opinion many of those suppositions are part of a larger political end game, rather than just reflecting on history and the lessons it can teach.

I'm certainly not accusing you of approaching this form a jingoistic perspective, but in my opinion the highlighted sentence isn't nearly critical enough of Empire. I don't think that's me adhering to an agenda, that's just an honest assessment of the history as I see it. The phrase 'wasn't all beneficence and roses' seems to be suggesting that the whole imperial enterprise was something of a mixed bag in terms of outcome for everyone involved. However, for me empires, particularly those of the 19th century, were just theft and wealth extraction on a global scale. That's the foundation and motivation for them and we don't usually talk about the crime of armed theft in terms of pros and cons. 

It's to be expected that within the countries that benefitted financially from empire building that public opinion will typically be more defensive or even positive about the imperial past. However if you were to ask the populations of the countries that have been colonized, especially those that remained so in the relatively recent past, I think you would find that public opinion would be overwhelmingly negative. That tells it's own story in my opinion. 

By all means reply but I'll leave it at that for now, this all really belongs in another thread. 

[Highgate]

It's hard to even comprehend the courage of someone like this. 

 

[kevinhectoring]

9 hours ago, Mostyn6 said:

You can believe what you like, but the technology available to Israel is superior to almost all around the world. If you think that they can know where all the Hamas commanders are hiding, yet didn't see this attack coming, and didn't react for hours, and didn't have anyone stationed on those fences (which they man excessively to shoot at kids throwing stones), then I question your mind. Once you realise that doesn't stand to logic, you will then start asking the relevant questions. Hamas actually serve a purpose for Israel more than they they serve the people of Palestine.

There’s a very big difference between

- Netanyahu tolerating hamas because it suits his purposes

- Netanyahu conspiring in a scheme that results in the death of 1,400 Israelis and 150 being held hostage. 
 

The first is perfectly believable. The second is not, it doesn’t begin to hold water but it is the sort of thing that is meat and drink to conspiracy theorists 

[kevinhectoring]

The elephant in the room is Trump. The US has given Israel unstinting support for 40 years which has contributed to this mess. Biden and Blinken are now making clear their view that Israel needs to find a political settlement with the Palestinians. Unfortunately, when the dust settles on all the bodies, Israel will calculate that if they drag their feet long enough, Trump will become president and all pressure on them to seek a long term peace will dissipate. That could lead to WW3

[ramit]

8 hours ago, kevinhectoring said:

There’s a very big difference between

- Netanyahu tolerating hamas because it suits his purposes

- Netanyahu conspiring in a scheme that results in the death of 1,400 Israelis and 150 being held hostage. 
 

The first is perfectly believable. The second is not, it doesn’t begin to hold water but it is the sort of thing that is meat and drink to conspiracy theorists 

Argue your points by all means, but please don't be so condescending.  Is it possible that your rejection of the possibility of Israeli foreknowledge is based more on emotional simple denial than logic in this case?  Zionists have a history of sacrificing their people for gain, Israel would likely not exist, if not for their conniving.

You claim that IDF senior officers would have to have been in the know, that is simply not true, they are soldiers, they do as they are told, a secret operation is of course worked in a need to know compartmentalized way.