Palestine

[Day]

36 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

Indeed - and this highlights another curious paradox in the IHRA textbook definition of anti-semitism

It's deemed anti-semitic to conflate the state of Israel with Jewish people.

Which is fair enough when it's non-jewish people doing it, but viewed from the opposite angle - you see Jewish people constantly conflating criticism of the state of Israel as personal attacks on all jewish people...which is (by the IHRA definition) an act of anti-semitism...

Aware of the forum rules I wrote and not wanting to go down the religion path, I'll skirt it the best I can.

Wasn't long ago Islamophobia was thrown about, yet here we are not wanting to see people killed that so happen to be muslim, now antisemitism is thrown back. 

Religion amongst others is now being used as a layer of protection against criticism.

And we should be able to call out what's wrong in the world without being labelled, be it fat, thin, male, female, muslim, christian, white, asian, mixed race.

The loss of civilian lives be it Israeli or Palestinian is wrong. Simple as that. Refer back to my first post in this thread. Stop killing people ffs.

[PistoldPete]

51 minutes ago, Alpha said:

What's a civilian that's not innocent? A Palestinian protest against illegal Israeli settlement in West Bank??

A civilian is somebody not considered in a combat role. I don't think we can begin to assume what they were doing wrong was worthy of death. 

Israel not targeting civilians.... I mean, they're bombing Gaza. They kill people in West Bank. People the UN considers civilians. It seems wrong to me to try and find ways to justify that by blaming Hamas or what the civilians may or may not be doing. 

@PistoldPete you are obviously majorly concerned about Jews and the perception of Jew etc etc. I absolutely get that. Especially outside the Middle East. I've seen horrible videos of antisemitic scum who have no clue of the complex history. This conflict definitely breathes life into all that. I hope that every government and media outlet will do everything they can to make this about Israel as a world power. The media won't though. Money money. 

But as for Israel bombing civilians on purpose? Why would they? 

Well, they're firing at a densely populated region. Civilian death is about as accidental as driving your car at 100mph wearing a blindfold. 

They're doing it in preparation for a ground offensive to obviously limit their own losses. 

But to what end? It doesn't eliminate Hamas. It does the opposite?

What do I think they should do? Well, bias as I am I think they're the aggressor here so I disagree with most of the entire history that brought us to this point. 

But perhaps increase military presence? Make life in Gaza even harder?  Take time and use their technology to hunt Hamas. Pretty much a continuation of the last 50 years. Because I'm not sure what they're achieving here?

Alpha, David has answered my question about the civilian deaths . It wasnt 6,000 ( ie 100% of all Palestinian deaths as you had claimed. Still the majority were civilians. Is that brutal disproportionate ? Maybe. French civilian casualties were heavy in world war 2 many of them killed by the Allies. The ends justified the means most people believe especially the French. 
 

Will the same be true in Gaza? I do not know . Will it be a wild goose chase tracking down the Hamas terrorists I do not know. I am not a military strategist. 

will it only be self defeating and lead to escalation I don’t know. Maybe. 
 

so basically I agree with you on what Israel’s objective is. Whether it will work and / or whether the cost in human life will be disproportionate I do not know. 

it is a truly dreadful situation for both sides I think we can all agree on that. 

 

[Eddie]

6 hours ago, The Last Post said:

The day humour dies is the day I'll become a Monk and open a Monastery in Donny 😇

There's one in Coalville - and they brew the best beer in England.

[PistoldPete]

1 hour ago, Stive Pesley said:

Indeed - and this highlights another curious paradox in the IHRA textbook definition of anti-semitism

It's deemed anti-semitic to conflate the state of Israel with Jewish people.

Which is fair enough when it's non-jewish people doing it, but viewed from the opposite angle - you see Jewish people constantly conflating criticism of the state of Israel as personal attacks on all jewish people...which is (by the IHRA definition) an act of anti-semitism...

 

The IHRA definition says it’s ok to criticise Israel but no more than any other country for similar acts. Which is the point I have been making. Otherwise Jews everywhere are made to feel that they are being picked on. 

[Eddie]

4 hours ago, Alpha said:

Please consider Putin's reasons for the invasion.

My opinion:

Putin's only reason for invasion is, purely and simply, an attempt re-establish the Soviet Union. If he succeeds in Ukraine, you can bet your bottom Rouble that he will move on to other countries, one after the other. As a former Colonel in the KGB, he sees it as his legacy.

[Archied]

2 hours ago, David said:

The US and UK have no moral high ground to stand on when it comes to bombing other countries so no, I wouldn't expect them to denounce them as murderers. 

It's disappointing neither joined the calls for a ceasefire. I can't wrap my head around that one. 

From what's been reported, Biden has said the Egypt border will reopen, however they need to repair the damage from the recent rocket attacks. I won't go into where they have come from.

What I don't understand is the desire to continue bringing Jews into this still, why are they being referred to by their religion like it somehow plays a part in this?

When 9/11 occurred, was we referring to Americans as the Christians, how the Christians were acting in self defence. Not at all.

Read the topic, members are not against the Jewish people, they are against the bombing of innocent civilians on both sides and quite open in labelling Hamas as a terrorist organisation.

I'm not sure where you feel the need for balance is, hold on, let's not want zero civilian deaths, let's support Israel with a few as they were attacked first. Now I know you wouldn't sign off on that at all, it's just confusing where you're finding this lack of balance like there is a huge support for Hamas on here or something when it's clearly not the case.

Sadly religion does come into this and plays a huge part from the beginning, no not decent people with a faith but religious extremists ,

sadly at this point Islam appears to be lagging behind in the numbers able to move religion into the context of today s world , it’s an unpalatable truth that we tiptoe around , you only have to look at teachers having to go into hiding in England afraid for they’re lives , mother of a schoolboy having to sit in front of a group in a headscarf and pretty much beg for leniency for her child daft enough ( as kids are ) to damage a copy of the Koran, French cartoonist’s ect , now let me be Clear , I have no problem with decent people of the muslim faith , we had a property in turkey for years and made many good friends over the years but we don’t drink and be disrespectful , the way some holiday makers behaved was a stomach churning embarrassment , there are issues that the muslim world need to address and resolve for sure 

the Palestinian problem has far more issues than just religion though,

I’ve always been a bit of an outlier in terms of how I see terrorism though ,, yes it’s very wrong but so is fighting dirty with a weapon in most eyes but here’s the rub , say you have some horrible bully that hurts you or your family and constantly makes live unliveable, now you know no matter what that you are never going to beat them one to one , the old bill and legal system does it’s usual bugger all ,

at some stage you step outside what is deemed fair and decent 🤷🏻‍♂️

back on track , as I’ve said before I believe this only stops when muslim and Jew in the Middle East draw a line on the past and stand together against all and any killing

Edited October 19, 2023 by Archied

[Alph]

25 minutes ago, Eddie said:

My opinion:

Putin's only reason for invasion is, purely and simply, an attempt re-establish the Soviet Union. If he succeeds in Ukraine, you can bet your bottom Rouble that he will move on to other countries, one after the other. As a former Colonel in the KGB, he sees it as his legacy.

That is quite possibly true. But to even dream of restoring the Soviet Union he has to fight those who have tried to oppose it, undermine it and build their own empire. 

I don't want to live in a world shaped by Russia. I'd prefer the one shaped by America. 

America have tried to weaken Russia. Which is why in the Ukraine thread it was really hard to give Putin's claims any credibility when he was busy starting a war/invasion 

But here in this thread it's much easier I think. Because this time you can see how the laws and morality bend. How the propaganda works to make the aggressor a victim. What happens in Gaza and West Bank are everything America opposes. Oppression, violence on civilians, UN violations etc etc. But this time they're a bit slow with their sanctions. A bit deaf when the UN speak. The emails from Amnesty Int don't make it to Washington.

Netenyahu could even be considered an ideal drinking buddy of Vlad.They'd have a lot of ideas to share.

Ukraine would look superb fenced in surrounded by gunships and fighter jets, Vlad. But Donbas and West Bank eh? Bloody nightmare to capture. 

[Alph]

1 hour ago, PistoldPete said:

Alpha, David has answered my question about the civilian deaths . It wasnt 6,000 ( ie 100% of all Palestinian deaths as you had claimed. Still the majority were civilians. Is that brutal disproportionate ? Maybe. French civilian casualties were heavy in world war 2 many of them killed by the Allies. The ends justified the means most people believe especially the French. 
 

Will the same be true in Gaza? I do not know . Will it be a wild goose chase tracking down the Hamas terrorists I do not know. I am not a military strategist. 

will it only be self defeating and lead to escalation I don’t know. Maybe. 
 

so basically I agree with you on what Israel’s objective is. Whether it will work and / or whether the cost in human life will be disproportionate I do not know. 

it is a truly dreadful situation for both sides I think we can all agree on that. 

 

And I think we probably agree on a two state solution??

However nobody else does. Nobody who could make it happen. Even less people now. On both sides. 

I don't see a bright future for Palestinians. The powers that be seem to be having too much fun. Iran, America, Netenyahu, Hamas.

How is it that nobody likes dead children but we keep allowing it?

[Eddie]

9 minutes ago, Alpha said:

And I think we probably agree on a two state solution??

However nobody else does. Nobody who could make it happen. Even less people now. On both sides. 

I don't see a bright future for Palestinians. The powers that be seem to be having too much fun. Iran, America, Netenyahu, Hamas.

How is it that nobody likes dead children but we keep allowing it?

I'd like a single-state secular solution.

What kind of stupid god creates three holy sites for three different religions and puts them all in the same place?

[Wolfie]

21 minutes ago, Eddie said:

What kind of stupid god creates three holy sites for three different religions and puts them all in the same place?

I know, you couldn't make it up....😉

[Archied]

44 minutes ago, Wolfie said:

I know, you couldn't make it up....😉

Somebody did 🤷‍♂️

[GboroRam]

[AndyinLiverpool]

11 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

Private Eye nails it again

[PistoldPete]

7 hours ago, Mostyn6 said:

why?

Why are British Jews concerned about "opinions" of/on Israel? I do not understand this if they are not Israeli. Is this a downstream affect of everyone being told that criticising Israel is anti-semitic?

Well  (to take an extreme example) Daniel Perl was an a American Jew who had to confess (falsely) to being from a family of Zionists before he had his head cut off. I think Jews around the world have legitimate concern that Israel is not portrayed as the bad guys and "Zionists".. because some deranged people think that reflects on all Jews. .

 

 

[PistoldPete]

4 hours ago, Alpha said:

And I think we probably agree on a two state solution??

However nobody else does. Nobody who could make it happen. Even less people now. On both sides. 

I don't see a bright future for Palestinians. The powers that be seem to be having too much fun. Iran, America, Netenyahu, Hamas.

How is it that nobody likes dead children but we keep allowing it?

A two state solution would be fine if that is what both parites want. Like you say I don't think either of them want that though. 

[ramit]

 

[DerbysLane]

On 18/10/2023 at 20:52, PistoldPete said:

So if Hamas launch a rocket aimed at an Israeli plane and it lands on a hospital , is that a murder of innocent civilians? I would say not. It is self defence. Same with Israeli attacks they are acts of self defence.

It has been reported that since Israel started it's bombing, a child has died in Gaza every 15 minutes. Is that a reasonable form of self-defence?

Of course it isn't.  A reasonable self-defence would be increasing troop numbers around the border, building better barriers, erecting watch towers, etc.

Self-defence is not an excuse to do what you like.  Besides, Hamas could equally claim that they killed Israeli citizens in self-defence, that guerrilla warfare is the only way they can take on Israel.

How are we to reasonably judge the aggressor?  Number of people killed?  Land occupied?  It doesn't stack up well for Israel.

If Jewish people are concerned that the actions of Israel reflects badly on Jewish people then they should call out the actions of Israel, not try and justify it.

[Archied]

8 hours ago, DerbysLane said:

 

If Jewish people are concerned that the actions of Israel reflects badly on Jewish people then they should call out the actions of Israel, not try and justify it.

Some are , just as some on the Arab side are doing the same with hamas , problem is it’s not enough on either side 🤷🏻‍♂️

[PistoldPete]

9 hours ago, DerbysLane said:

It has been reported that since Israel started it's bombing, a child has died in Gaza every 15 minutes. Is that a reasonable form of self-defence?

Of course it isn't.  A reasonable self-defence would be increasing troop numbers around the border, building better barriers, erecting watch towers, etc.

Self-defence is not an excuse to do what you like.  Besides, Hamas could equally claim that they killed Israeli citizens in self-defence, that guerrilla warfare is the only way they can take on Israel.

How are we to reasonably judge the aggressor?  Number of people killed?  Land occupied?  It doesn't stack up well for Israel.

If Jewish people are concerned that the actions of Israel reflects badly on Jewish people then they should call out the actions of Israel, not try and justify it.

The big unknown is how many Israeli lives have been saved by them taking out thousands of Hamas militants. In a single day 1,400 Israelis were killed. That is the true measure of what is proportionate. 

[Stive Pesley]

16 hours ago, PistoldPete said:

The IHRA definition says it’s ok to criticise Israel but no more than any other country for similar acts. Which is the point I have been making. Otherwise Jews everywhere are made to feel that they are being picked on. 

But again conflating Israel and Jews as the same thing (technically antisemitic if non Jews do it).

If someone criticises our government, do all protestants take offence and feel picked on?