After administration how long did you think it would take

[Ghost of Clough]

10 minutes ago, RadioactiveWaste said:

Organisationally, 1 year, we seem to be fine on that track (relationship with the league, bills being paid, conducting routine business, gaining sponsorship etc etc)

Playing squad - really over achived last summer, did OK to "meh" this summer.

League position - I expected 5 years to become "upwards looking championship club" so not unduely worried at this point.

Academy - 5-8 years, total rebuild and time taken to start bringing through a generation. Don't get excited but let that work it's way over time.

5-8 years for the academy?!! We have youth internationals in our U18 and U21 squads. I hope it doesn't take 8 years to get them in the first team 😮 

[RadioactiveWaste]

4 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

5-8 years for the academy?!! We have youth internationals in our U18 and U21 squads. I hope it doesn't take 8 years to get them in the first team 😮 

Considering the overall damage that was done to it, yeah, probably take that long to make it something like what it was as an outfit.

That's a diffent thing to "are there any good players there"

[Gabby'sThighs]

Having seen the likes of Sunderland, Leeds, Bolton, Ipswich, Wednesday, etc. scrabble around for a while in League One, I assumed it might take a while.
It's hard to watch at times, and I'm not convinced Warne makes the squad play to their strengths, but these players are at this level for a reason. Kane Wilson is an exciting prospect but he missed two easy chances against Blackpool, Mendez-Laing had two great chances early on against Cheltenham and fluffed them both, Collins missed a gilt-edged chance and wasted the last kick of the game. Maybe that comes with confidence, etc. but it's also that they're good-not-great footballers.
Tactics don't make players choke at crucial moments, that's largely down to ability and mentality.

[VulcanRam]

16 hours ago, Curtains said:

My point is although the squad is getting stronger it’s still limited due to EFL restrictions after administration.

I am amazed we are In as good as a place as we are now .

 

17 hours ago, Curtains said:

Big expectations is fine and we still may go up hopefully.

Sack the manager even though I think it’s the wrong thing to do. 
 
Frankly I am fed up of the whole thing now 

Make your mind up! Are you amazed that we're in as good a place as we are or fed up of the whole thing and want the manager sacked?

[Ghost of Clough]

5 minutes ago, RadioactiveWaste said:

Considering the overall damage that was done to it, yeah, probably take that long to make it something like what it was as an outfit.

That's a diffent thing to "are there any good players there"

What are you expecting a fully rebuilt academy to look like? How many more academy staff are we short? Players through the squads of what level?

The best academy seasons at U18 and U21 level was arguably 18/19 (when the U18s won the league and 19/20 (U21s finished 4th). We were fortunate to get a high number of good quality youngsters through at the same time who will have good EFL careers. Even prior to administration, we didn't have 2 consecutive batches matching those seasons. That U21 squad was often boosted by senior pros dropping down to help out - Bennett, Evans, Holmes, Wisdom, Shinnie, Forsyth, Martin and Anya all featured in that season.
2017 scholars - JBrown, Buchanan, Bird, Knight, Whittaker
2018 scholars - Cashin, Ebosele, Thompson, Sibley, Stretton

That's excluding a few who had a good impact at youth level too - French, Foster, Minkley, Dixon, McDonald, Archie Brown, and Wilson.

The highlights from the 2019 and 2020 batches (prior to admin impact) being Bardell, Solomon, Cybulski, and Williams. Delap (2019) and Gordon (2020) left prior to being first year scholars and before administration was a real possibility.

I'm not denying there will be in impact from the youngsters we lost during administration, but it's only really a couple from each age group, with the impact below the first year scholars being minimal.
2020 - Williams
2021 - Ryan, Kellyman, Ebiowei
2022 - Sharpe, Scanlon
2023 - Kaba

I can already see the quality of the squads we have left as matching that from the 2019 and 2020 intakes, despite the youngsters who did leave us, with just as many making the grade. 
The current issue I see is the stability of youngsters progressing through. We're missing an entire batch of youngsters from the U21s. That 2020 group was needed to ensure we had enough depth at that level, without the need to fast track U18s through or recruit from outside. We also made a decision to loan out some of the depth we had (Oseni, Nunn, Oduroh). It's 1 or 2 seasons to address that problem.

[MackworthRamIsGod]

20 hours ago, tinman said:

With Warne, 5 years. Without Warne, 2

Stick with Warne and I honestly don't think we will recover, only regress.

Time for someone with balls to make difficult decisions for the good of the club and its future...in my opinion of course.

[Marriot Ram99]

19 hours ago, Mucker1884 said:

Define "Recovery"!

Championship top ten/PO hopefuls (at least), but this time without and financial skullduggery in the cupboard?
If that's recovery, then I'd say 6 years at best, more likely a full decade.

If it's "Established in the Championship" a lá Mr Clowes' announced target, I reckon he "MIGHT" just achieve that in the next 4 years, but no sooner. 

6 years at beat for top 10 ?maybe a decade that's the most pessimistic thing I've ever heard!

The Championship is not that high quality, I think after promotion we will need a season to consolidate and 15th or so would be acceptable but that is year 3, year 4 and 5 we definitely should be top 10.  In the Championship under Cocu we were top 10 and bang average,  only way we struggle for that is very poor recruitment or Clowes putting no money in.

I won't be happy for such a lack of ambition, if Clowes was happy for years in the bottom half of the championship I'd want new owners in quick sharp, I don't think that will be the case.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Marriot Ram99

[RadioactiveWaste]

49 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

What are you expecting a fully rebuilt academy to look like? How many more academy staff are we short? Players through the squads of what level?

The best academy seasons at U18 and U21 level was arguably 18/19 (when the U18s won the league and 19/20 (U21s finished 4th). We were fortunate to get a high number of good quality youngsters through at the same time who will have good EFL careers. Even prior to administration, we didn't have 2 consecutive batches matching those seasons. That U21 squad was often boosted by senior pros dropping down to help out - Bennett, Evans, Holmes, Wisdom, Shinnie, Forsyth, Martin and Anya all featured in that season.
2017 scholars - JBrown, Buchanan, Bird, Knight, Whittaker
2018 scholars - Cashin, Ebosele, Thompson, Sibley, Stretton

That's excluding a few who had a good impact at youth level too - French, Foster, Minkley, Dixon, McDonald, Archie Brown, and Wilson.

The highlights from the 2019 and 2020 batches (prior to admin impact) being Bardell, Solomon, Cybulski, and Williams. Delap (2019) and Gordon (2020) left prior to being first year scholars and before administration was a real possibility.

I'm not denying there will be in impact from the youngsters we lost during administration, but it's only really a couple from each age group, with the impact below the first year scholars being minimal.
2020 - Williams
2021 - Ryan, Kellyman, Ebiowei
2022 - Sharpe, Scanlon
2023 - Kaba

I can already see the quality of the squads we have left as matching that from the 2019 and 2020 intakes, despite the youngsters who did leave us, with just as many making the grade. 
The current issue I see is the stability of youngsters progressing through. We're missing an entire batch of youngsters from the U21s. That 2020 group was needed to ensure we had enough depth at that level, without the need to fast track U18s through or recruit from outside. We also made a decision to loan out some of the depth we had (Oseni, Nunn, Oduroh). It's 1 or 2 seasons to address that problem.

I'll be honest say I'd based my comment on how long I remember it taking to develop the academy post 2008-9 without really knowing what i was talking about and thinking it had been wiped out during the admin. I'm happy to wrong.

[Curtains]

1 hour ago, VulcanRam said:

 

Make your mind up! Are you amazed that we're in as good a place as we are or fed up of the whole thing and want the manager sacked?

I don’t want the manager sacked I like the manager. 
 

 

[Ram@Lincoln]

1 hour ago, Ghost of Clough said:

That's excluding a few who had a good impact at youth level too - French, Foster, Minkley, Dixon, McDonald, Archie Brown, and Wilson.

Another one to add to the list of players that leave us for nothing and go on to good things. Joined Genk this summer for €4m from the Swiss team. Did we get anything for him? Guessing not much as it was end of contract and a foreign move. How many more like him, that Riis Jakobsen at Preston etc have we missed out on?

https://www.transfermarkt.com/archie-brown/transfers/spieler/581329

[Barney1991]

At least a serious challenge for top 2 this season. Didn’t Wigan go up the second season after admin after nearly going down first season 

[Mucker1884]

1 hour ago, Marriot Ram99 said:

6 years at beat for top 10 ?maybe a decade that's the most pessimistic thing I've ever heard!

The Championship is not that high quality, I think after promotion we will need a season to consolidate and 15th or so would be acceptable but that is year 3, year 4 and 5 we definitely should be top 10.  In the Championship under Cocu we were top 10 and bang average,  only way we struggle for that is very poor recruitment or Clowes putting no money in.

I won't be happy for such a lack of ambition, if Clowes was happy for years in the bottom half of the championship I'd want new owners in quick sharp, I don't think that will be the case.

1/  And yet here you are, reading such a post from one of the forums least pessimistic members.  (No emphasis on "Member", I hasten to add!

2/  It's almost like a forum where folk have differing views!

3/  I don't believe I referenced anything to do with Mr Clowes and/or his ambitions... or lack thereof.  Nor did I lay claim as to what he would be happy with.

4/  I hasten to add further, my post was my opinion regarding expectations (as asked for in the OP), as opposed to my own ambitions, desires, hopes etc.

5/
  

 

... and I may not be around long enough to say "I told you so"!  😲🤣

 

🐏🍻

 

[Ghost of Clough]

12 minutes ago, Ram@Lincoln said:

Another one to add to the list of players that leave us for nothing and go on to good things. Joined Genk this summer for €4m from the Swiss team. Did we get anything for him? Guessing not much as it was end of contract and a foreign move. How many more like him, that Riis Jakobsen at Preston etc have we missed out on?

https://www.transfermarkt.com/archie-brown/transfers/spieler/581329

We more or less couldn't give it to him due to the EFL's embargo restrictions (prior to administration!) limiting us to so many players with first team experience. Playing him in a first team game would have stopped us signing someone else (such as Jagielka). In my opinion, he was ready for first team football, which will be why he left to get it.

In terms of players we should have done better financially out of, other than the two you mentioned, there's only really Buchanan, Ebosele, and Ebiowei as things stand, all due to not being able to offer them new deals during administration.

[Ghost of Clough]

50 minutes ago, Barney1991 said:

At least a serious challenge for top 2 this season. Didn’t Wigan go up the second season after admin after nearly going down first season 

Whilst it took Wigan 2 seasons to get promoted, they didn't exit administration until the end of their 1st season (March 2021)

[Barney1991]

1 hour ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Whilst it took Wigan 2 seasons to get promoted, they didn't exit administration until the end of their 1st season (March 2021)

So it took them 1 season then which is even worse 

[strawhillram]

23 hours ago, jimtastic56 said:

Yes, I don’t think we have got to grips with League 1 yet. 10 years to challenge “Parachute teams” is a possibility. To more than recover and get in the Prem - possibly 20 years. But we can never forget what David Clowes has done for us.

With those timescales, I might as well well pack up now. Potentially seeing no major success in the rest of my  lifetime

[Andicis]

I thought a couple of years. Last season with how late everything was sorted and with a brand new squad I expected us to start slowly and build. I still think autos this year has to be what we measure success against because financially we have a huge advantage.

[tinman]

23 hours ago, Ghost of Clough said:

We more or less couldn't give it to him due to the EFL's embargo restrictions (prior to administration!) limiting us to so many players with first team experience. Playing him in a first team game would have stopped us signing someone else (such as Jagielka). In my opinion, he was ready for first team football, which will be why he left to get it.

In terms of players we should have done better financially out of, other than the two you mentioned, there's only really Buchanan, Ebosele, and Ebiowei as things stand, all due to not being able to offer them new deals during administration.

We weren’t going to give him a decent contract. Nor Ebosele, remember.
The powers that be at the time didn’t rate either of them for some reason. 
brown had clubs in for him, but festy wanted to stick around and so signed a new deal eventually. 

Edited October 10, 2023 by tinman

[Ghost of Clough]

34 minutes ago, tinman said:

We weren’t going to give him a decent contract. Nor Ebosele, remember.
The powers that be at the time didn’t rate either of them for some reason. 
brown had clubs in for him, but festy wanted to stick around and so signed a new deal eventually. 

Cashin wasn't fancied much either... At least the first team coaching staff had the vision and courage of playing the likes of Cashin and 

The point still stands. Archie Brown leaving was a direct result of the EFL's embargo rules which prevented us from using our own academy products. Cashin couldn't play as it would have stopped us keeping Jagielka/Baldock past January. We only played him when we knew it wouldn't impact who we could sign anymore.

We has to get special permission for them to not count the players who featured in the Covid FA Cup match.
We also had to let go of Mitchell, Mitchell-Lawson, Cresswell and Hector-Ingram to create space to sign any senior players. Those departures created space for 4 out of our 5 signings (Baldock, Stearman, Jagielka, Allsop and Ravel)
With rules seemingly changing all the time, we even sold JBrown, Marshall, Shinnie in January, just to keep Jagielka and Baldock, with rules changing once again resulting in their contracts ending early!

[The Key Club King]

Derby were in a pretty unique position when we were relegated as we had absolutely no dead wood in the squad. Most big relegated teams tend to have some high earners in their squad that they can't shift often creating a toxic atmosphere that is difficult to shift. We only had players we wanted to keep and in addition had one of the highest wage budgets in the league to recruit more.

Of course we were hampered by lack of planning time and a fee-paying embargo, but I'd still argue we were actually in a decent place. I thought we'd get top two but given the top three all got 95 points then hindsight suggests I expected too much. Not making the playoffs though was a major failure. 

I expected the same this season as I hoped for in the last. 

I'll tip us for relegation next year instead!