Embleton needs surgery and has returned to Sunderland

[Day]

3 hours ago, sage said:

See the answer above. They may feel he was given too many minutes too early. John Jules got injured after one game. Spingett got injured. 

I'm not suggesting they were handled badly but it may be the perception of other clubs.

 

Maybe, guess time will tell. Embelton had 8 months out with a broken ankle, you spend that much time out, muscle injuries are common.

John Jules did his hammy at Ipswich, was just about to return and did his quad in which ruled him out for the season.

Missed 3 months with another thigh injury at Doncaster.

So yeah, it's not like we've taken players on with no previous and broke them.

Guess it depends on what the players report back to their clubs and what gets passed around other clubs.

 

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, David said:

Maybe, guess time will tell. Embelton had 8 months out with a broken ankle, you spend that much time out, muscle injuries are common.

John Jules did his hammy at Ipswich, was just about to return and did his quad in which ruled him out for the season.

Missed 3 months with another thigh injury at Doncaster.

So yeah, it's not like we've taken players on with no previous and broke them.

Guess it depends on what the players report back to their clubs and what gets passed around other clubs.

 

Given that we know from our own experience that some players are naturally injury prone, i.e. George Thorne and Kristian Bielik, why are we taking players with a history of injuries on loan at all? Paul Warne has admitted that there was a known risk with John-Jules and his injury record. We simply cannot, in our current situation, be gambling on those risks and we should be seeking to avoid them in my opinion. Paul Warne says he puts a lot of store on character when deciding who to recruit. There is a perception from a lot of supporters that Embleton in his interviews gave the impression he didn't want to come here at all, which begs the question as to what sort of character assessment he underwent. Given the lateness of his signing at the last hour, it gives an impression that it might have been too hurried to assess anything about him.

[Mckram]

This is a big shame. Whilst he was very rusty against Portsmouth, he looked a really positive player with his balls forward and wasn’t afraid to take risks.

I was hoping he could keep Hourihane out of the team but looks like we’re back to square one. 

[Day]

4 minutes ago, Brailsford Ram said:

Given that we know from our own experience that some players are naturally injury prone, i.e. George Thorne and Kristian Bielik, why are we taking players with a history of injuries on loan at all? Paul Warne has admitted that there was a known risk with John-Jules and his injury record. We simply cannot, in our current situation, be gambling on those risks and we should be seeking to avoid them in my opinion. Paul Warne says he puts a lot of store on character when deciding who to recruit. There is a perception from a lot of supporters that Embleton in his interviews gave the impression he didn't want to come here at all, which begs the question as to what sort of character assessment he underwent. Given the lateness of his signing at the last hour, it gives an impression that it might have been too hurried to assess anything about him.

Honest answer, I don't know.

Guess would be, the better, fitter players make their way to the Championship on loan.

We're left with the utter dross, or those with injury issues and need a chance to get back fit.

I think if Warne was open and honest, that was a less than ideal transfer window and became a take what we can.

convinced that accounts for a good 80% of deadline day signings everywhere, wish the window would close before the season kicks off.

[FlyBritishMidland]

36 minutes ago, Brailsford Ram said:

Given that we know from our own experience that some players are naturally injury prone, i.e. George Thorne and Kristian Bielik, why are we taking players with a history of injuries on loan at all? Paul Warne has admitted that there was a known risk with John-Jules and his injury record. We simply cannot, in our current situation, be gambling on those risks and we should be seeking to avoid them in my opinion. Paul Warne says he puts a lot of store on character when deciding who to recruit. There is a perception from a lot of supporters that Embleton in his interviews gave the impression he didn't want to come here at all, which begs the question as to what sort of character assessment he underwent. Given the lateness of his signing at the last hour, it gives an impression that it might have been too hurried to assess anything about him.

On the bit in bold it’s worth listening to the Rams Daily podcast after he was signed.  They spoke to a Sunderland journalist who said that he’s a shy character, wants to play football, hates the media side of it and gives nothing away in interviews.  Basically, that’s how he is.  Obviously all the body language experts and behaviour psychologists on here will know better, never having met him 😉.

[Day]

4 minutes ago, FlyBritishMidland said:

On the bit in bold it’s worth listening to the Rams Daily podcast after he was signed.  They spoke to a Sunderland journalist who said that he’s a shy character, wants to play football, hates the media side of it and gives nothing away in interviews.  Basically, that’s how he is.  Obviously all the body language experts and behaviour psychologists on here will know better, never having met him 😉.

Was watching Stick to Football episode 1 on YouTube today (The Overlap lot), Sancho was talked about and how his lack of smiling is perceived as having an attitude problem.

Tom Ince, Jacob Butterfield spring to mind.

Difficult one as I'm not a huge smiler, feel super awkward doing so, that's just me.

Some of these players will be the same, some will hate the media side and just want to play football.

Think we read into body language too much sometimes.

In terms of Embleton, as I recall it was last minute so a 4 hour drive down, medical, media, be a long day for someone that woke up not expecting to go through all that.

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, FlyBritishMidland said:

On the bit in bold it’s worth listening to the Rams Daily podcast after he was signed.  They spoke to a Sunderland journalist who said that he’s a shy character, wants to play football, hates the media side of it and gives nothing away in interviews.  Basically, that’s how he is.  Obviously all the body language experts and behaviour psychologists on here will know better, never having met him 😉.

That's fine but Tony Mowbray had named him in his match day squad for the following day. It was reported that Sunderland had then agreed to Embleton joining Derby on a season's long loan without Mowbray's knowledge, which displeased Mowbray. Following Mowbray's interjection, the loan deal was revised to a deal until January. If I was Embleton, who seems to have played a significant part in Sunderland's promotion back to the Championship, I think I would have been a little unsettled and entitled to ask why I was being sent back to Division One on loan when my manager seemed keen to retain me at Sunderland. In those circumstances I could not be critical of the player not wanting to be at Derby. It all seems a bit unclear and in my opinion still begs the question of how deep was Derby's exploration of the character? We only need players here who we are sure are committed to the cause.

[Ghost of Clough]

59 minutes ago, David said:

Honest answer, I don't know.

Guess would be, the better, fitter players make their way to the Championship on loan.

We're left with the utter dross, or those with injury issues and need a chance to get back fit.

I think if Warne was open and honest, that was a less than ideal transfer window and became a take what we can.

convinced that accounts for a good 80% of deadline day signings everywhere, wish the window would close before the season kicks off.

How do you think our summer dealings compare with the signings we made in the previous summers under much tougher situations. (Perm signing only, excluding post-season contract extensions)

21/22: Allsop, Stearman, Jagielka, Ravel, Baldock

22/23: Wildsmith, Loach, Chester, Smith, Hourihane, Mendez-Laing, Barkhuizen, McGoldrick, Collins

23/24: Vickers, Bradley, Nelson, Elder, Nyambe, Ward, Wilson, Fornah, Waghorn, Washington

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

How do you think our summer dealings compare with the signings we made in the previous summers under much tougher situations. (Perm signing only, excluding post-season contract extensions)

21/22: Allsop, Stearman, Jagielka, Ravel, Baldock

22/23: Wildsmith, Loach, Chester, Smith, Hourihane, Mendez-Laing, Barkhuizen, McGoldrick, Collins

23/24: Vickers, Bradley, Nelson, Elder, Nyambe, Ward, Wilson, Fornah, Waghorn, Washington

I get your point but to be fair I think it's too early by far to make judgement on the 23/24 intake. After all we're still hoping they will take us to promotion 😉.

[MaltRam]

Bugger.

[Day]

48 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

How do you think our summer dealings compare with the signings we made in the previous summers under much tougher situations. (Perm signing only, excluding post-season contract extensions)

21/22: Allsop, Stearman, Jagielka, Ravel, Baldock

22/23: Wildsmith, Loach, Chester, Smith, Hourihane, Mendez-Laing, Barkhuizen, McGoldrick, Collins

23/24: Vickers, Bradley, Nelson, Elder, Nyambe, Ward, Wilson, Fornah, Waghorn, Washington

Mixed bag in fairness and with 23/24 only 2 months in it's too early to really compare.

22/23.

Wildsmith fantastic.

Loach a training ground signing.

Chester barely played.

Smith tidy without being a stand out.

Hourihane got dogs abuse, more so when named in team of the season, many believed wrong choice for captain.

Mendez-Laing fantastic but dipped towards the end of the season, and hasn't really reached the same heights as yet. International call ups won't help.

Barkhuizen, decent enough, shame about the injuries.

McGoldrick. Player of the season. Gone.

Collins, you only have to look at the reaction when he's in the starting 11.

21/22 was in the Championship, null and void.

[RoyMac5]

Nailed on to play at this level reckons Mowbray?

"Speaking about Embleton, Mowbray said: "It's a big blow for the boy - a huge blow. I've had long chats with him, he's been in my office, and I've been on the phone to him. He's obviously pretty down, pretty low.

"He had eight months out here [with a broken ankle] and the reason he went out on loan was to try and get some game time at a level where he wouldn't find himself on the bench playing ten or 20 minutes here and there, but where he would be going out and playing. We felt that after an eight-month lay-off, that [a loan] would be more beneficial for him but a few weeks into that, it looks like he has torn his thigh muscle and it's going to be a good few months [before he is ready to play again] I would think.

"We discussed with him coming back here to do his rehab with what we would call his 'family', with the players here so he can be around the place and maybe he will come to some of the away games with us to integrate him into the club and make sure he feels part of what we're trying to do."

[Comrade 86]

Can't believe I'm actually the one having to point this out, but when Liam had a bunch of players out injured (ie the entire time he was in charge), nobody was questioning his training methods. 

As it is, I'm gutted for the lad himself and also for the club as I do think this lad could have been the missing link; pace, box to box, with a rocket shot on him. It's just our lousy luck though, I'm afraid. I don't buy the consipacy theories at all.

[May Contain Nuts]

29 minutes ago, Comrade 86 said:

Can't believe I'm actually the one having to point this out, but when Liam had a bunch of players out injured (ie the entire time he was in charge), nobody was questioning his training methods. 

As it is, I'm gutted for the lad himself and also for the club as I do think this lad could have been the missing link; pace, box to box, with a rocket shot on him. It's just our lousy luck though, I'm afraid. I don't buy the consipacy theories at all.

By his own admission ("Gas Out" "If they didn't know they were runners, they will do soon") Warne's training and approach to games demands a higher level of physical exertion than many other managers. He asks for a high press, a high intensity, for players to win the ball back immediately after losing it. He likes to get the ball forward quickly, lung-busting runs with and without the ball, players leaving it all out on the pitch, every game

That's his thing, it's the first basic principle of how he wants his teams to play. It's not a secret. His own analysis of last season even showed that he was aware he sometimes relied too much on certain players or kept them on the pitch beyond the optimal amount of time for them to make an impact. 

None of that is to say that it's accurate to state that Warne's methods have resulted in players being injured, but you can see why people might lay the accusation at his door more than they might for a manager playing a more sedate and energy conserving style?

Edited September 29, 2023 by Kokosnuss

[RoyMac5]

16 hours ago, FlyBritishMidland said:

On the bit in bold it’s worth listening to the Rams Daily podcast after he was signed.  They spoke to a Sunderland journalist who said that he’s a shy character, wants to play football, hates the media side of it and gives nothing away in interviews.  Basically, that’s how he is.  Obviously all the body language experts and behaviour psychologists on here will know better, never having met him 😉.

Someone who 'wants to play football' you think he might have looked a bit happier, given that Mowbray basically 'promised him' that he'd be playing here and not just on the bench (as he might have done at Sunderland)?

"He had eight months out here [with a broken ankle] and the reason he went out on loan was to try and get some game time at a level where he wouldn't find himself on the bench, playing ten or 20 minutes here and there, but where he would be going out and playing. We felt that after an eight-month lay-off, that would be more beneficial for him..."

Think we just could have spent the money better.

 

Edited September 29, 2023 by RoyMac5

[Walkley Ram]

20 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Someone who 'wants to play football' you think he might have looked a bit happier, given that Mowbray basically 'promised him' that he'd be playing here and not just on the bench (as he might have done at Sunderland)?

"He had eight months out here [with a broken ankle] and the reason he went out on loan was to try and get some game time at a level where he wouldn't find himself on the bench, playing ten or 20 minutes here and there, but where he would be going out and playing. We felt that after an eight-month lay-off, that would be more beneficial for him..."

Think we just could have spent the money better.

 

All benefit of hindsight isn't it. My issue with that loan was it was always a lose-lose. If he played well, he goes back to Sunderland. If he plays bad, we don't benefit at all. I suppose this was the worst of all possible outcomes.

[jono]

19 hours ago, therealhantsram said:

 

 

RD were alluding to similar thoughts in their questioning of Warne in Saturdays post match interview. Hinting at something wrong with how players fitness and conditioning was being managed.

I just don’t buy this, or at least what it alludes to. One of the injuries was tearing a heal pad the others are what they are: a mixture. To suggest that somehow the twists and turns made by elite athletes are being badly mismanaged when there are a host of professional physios and doctors along with an experienced manager. The knowledge they all have as a group will be science based, except in extreme circumstances where a gamble will be discussed with the player and by the right people. I really think those attempting to build a potential “fitness and training scandal”  are not being helpful. It is extremely unlikely. 

[RadioactiveWaste]

Pushing human bodies to the absolute limit breaks them sometimes.

 

[duncanjwitham]

1 hour ago, Comrade 86 said:

Can't believe I'm actually the one having to point this out, but when Liam had a bunch of players out injured (ie the entire time he was in charge), nobody was questioning his training methods. 

Which players were these then?  Looking back over the line-ups from those games, Chester obviously had issues that persisted all season, McGoldrick was introduced slowly to keep him fit, and Davies missed a couple of games.  Apart from that we seemed to be pretty much full strength most of the time. And that's with a truncated preseason too.

This season, we've had Wilson, Hourihane, Barkhuizen, Bird, Thomspon, Sibley, Embleton, TJJ, Ward and Rooney miss games through injury...

[YorkshireRam]

This thread is getting silly. Injuries are part and parcel of football. If you really want to try and prove that Warne is injuring players then have a look at the correlation between the type of injuries and whether an overly-physical training regime could cause them. Embleton getting a freak injury taking a corner does not fit into this category though. Without insight into the training program either, it's just conjecture.

There's plenty of things you can evidence right now if you want to criticise Warne, please focus on these rather than trying to speculate on this. Warne knows we have a thin squad, I'd imagine he's trying to protect them right now, rather than the opposite. Bad luck does exist, it's not always someone's fault...