World Cup Qatar

[Comrade 86]

11 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

The Burton thread is im the Derby section of the forum!

Eh?

[ariotofmyown]

4 minutes ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

Eh?

You said people were watching a different game to you. Weak "gag".

[Ram-Alf]

11 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

"Hi guys, I was quite good at free kicks in an England team full of inflated egos. That is why we were always so poor in tournaments. But our friends in the media have successfully spun a narrative that people like me, JT, Lamps and Stevie G were great players. The only really good player from that copper generation was Ashley Cole, but he is black so the tabloids had to have a go at him. Rooney was great too, but just working class scum. Anyway, I want to see more ego, 

A very truthful summary, Good at free kicks...yes, The odd pass here and there...yes, Heading and tackling poor, Our Sven was smitten with Beckham at the World Cup, Only Beckham got to leave the hotel complex when it suited him, No shackles he went where he wanted, Our Ulrika even got to see Sven on the staircase one time, The bannister broke and Sven fell on top of Ulrika and...well ?

[Ram-Alf]

11 hours ago, PistoldPete said:

Because the contact is not with Kane's feet , it's with his upper leg, he is leaning forward. And the contact continues further inside the box. 

Even if you were the Ref last night Pete and gave a penalty, VAR would have over turned it...why...it was outside the box...simple

[Comrade 86]

I think some fairly harsh judgements have been made on last night's game, which in the immediate aftermath is understandable, but for my part, the serial choker / bottlers jibes seem a tad crass. The key moments that resulted in the game slipping away from us were the VAR non-decision on the first of a dozen or so fouls on Saka which then resulted in the first French goal. Then a penalty that would be given 8 or 9 times out of 10 was again not deemed to be even a foul. Lastly, the Kane penalty miss. 

I think it can be sensibly argued that Harry choked. We've seen him take a lot of spot-kicks over the years and that was comfortably the worst. It'll haunt him for years and that's rather sad for a player who has always given his all for both club and country. That said, how that miss extends to the rest of the team I'm not sure. We soaked up the early pressure, we started to take control of the game around the 25 minute mark and were comfortably the more threatening side after that. And before we forget, the team we were playing are the reigning world champions.

As for Southgate, I've expressed frustration when we retain the dual-holding midfielder line up against the likes of Wales, but I can see why he would favour such tactics against a side like France. Trying to break down teams who sit deep versus nullifying the threat of teams like France who come at you all guns blazing, requires different approaches. Based on the performance over the full 98 minutes, this was a game we really ought to have won and in so much, I'd say his decision was more or less vindicated and his record is one of the best in the national team's long history. It's a shame then that so many choose to pour scorn on him and the team when with a fairer crack of the whip, we'd most likely have seen England advancing and not France.

[Crewton]

2 hours ago, Mucker1884 said:

I can confirm that in a tiny remote corner of rural SW France, one Englishman was so enraged last night, he threw his baguette at the telly, and our (French) soon-to-be-daughter-in-law is refusing to wipe the mayonnaise of the screen, so he'll have to do it himself!  She's a hard one, that girl!  ??

"Papa Mucker, est ce  la mayonnaise dans le screen ou es-tu pleased-to-see-me?"

[SillyBilly]

12 hours ago, Tyler Durden said:

We'd have only lost on penalties anyway

We did lose on penalties so no change? Kane blazed it over the bar which sealed our fate. Or are we supposed to pre-qualify with timing of when the penalty was missed now? 

[SillyBilly]

7 minutes ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

As for Southgate, I've expressed frustration when we retain the dual-holding midfielder line up against the likes of Wales, but I can see why he would favour such tactics against a side like France. Trying to break down teams who sit deep versus nullifying the threat of teams like France who come at you all guns blazing, requires different approaches. Based on the performance over the full 98 minutes, this was a game we really ought to have won and in so much, I'd say his decision was more or less vindicated and his record is one of the best in the national team's long history. It's a shame then that so many choose to pour scorn on him and the team when with a fairer crack of the whip, we'd most likely have seen England advancing and not France.

I think your post is fair, it is always raw after the exit. It was a good performance last night, but it hurt because we bottled it from the spot, again. 

I would say on Southgate though the assessment of his tenure will not be done by Engerlund fans, it will be when he leaves post and evaluates options at club level. And to be honest, I'd be very surprised if he is in the mix for any top jobs, I'd even be surprised if he was fancied at mid-level premier league. So we'll see what the football world thinks of the job he has done. They may assess it that with the players at his disposal the job he has done doesn't qualify him for a look in at their football club. If Warne was sacked tomorrow and we got Southgate linked to us, how many of us would be excited about the future? I'll be honest, I wouldn't be, and this is an England football manager and we're in League One! 

 

[Comrade 86]

10 minutes ago, SillyBilly said:

I think your post is fair, it is always raw after the exit. It was a good performance last night, but it hurt because we bottled it from the spot, again. 

I would say on Southgate though the assessment of his tenure will not be done by Engerlund fans, it will be when he leaves post and evaluates options at club level. And to be honest, I'd be very surprised if he is in the mix for any top jobs, I'd even be surprised if he was fancied at mid-level premier league. So we'll see what the football world thinks of the job he has done. They may assess it that with the players at his disposal the job he has done doesn't qualify him for a look in at their football club. If Warne was sacked tomorrow and we got Southgate linked to us, how many of us would be excited about the future? I'll be honest, I wouldn't be, and this is an England football manager and we're in League One! 

 

Steve McClaren did a fair job for us I'd say, wouldn't you? Given the choice between Southgate and Warne, it'd be an easy call for me and I don't say that to fire pelters at Warney, but rather to give kudos to Southgate. For me, this team has yet to peak and in so much, assuming Soutgate stays in situ, then I'd agree that it'll be at the end of his tenure when we can fairly assess whether this 'golden generation' has been wasted. 

[littleover ram]

Any chance of Steve Gibson taking legal action against the nation of France?

[SillyBilly]

2 minutes ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

Steve McClaren did a fair job for us I'd say, wouldn't you? Given the choice between Southgate and Warne, it'd be an easy call for me and I don't say that to fire pelters at Warney, but rather to give kudos to Southgate. For me, this team has yet to peak and in so much, assuming Soutgate stays in situ, then I'd agree that it'll be at the end of his tenure when we can fairly assess whether this 'golden generation' has been wasted. 

Do you disagree that the top clubs in England (or in Europe for that matter) will rate Southgate? I'd be interested on your view on that as not commented on the key thrust of that post and instead brought us onto a different topic by asking a question of Steve M, obfuscating somewhat on the main point I was making.

On Steve McClaren, I liked his football and style of play and yes he did do well for us IMV. I also think this generation of England players is much better and less overhyped than what came before, considerably so infact. Warne is a proven winner at this level so I think we made the right call there, if not for this season but for next, like Southgate his football may not always be pleasing on the eye but I'd not see the point to change someone who has stellar L1 pedigree, was an excellent decision by Clowes for the medium term IMO. In Clowes and Warne I trust fully.

[PistoldPete]

1 hour ago, Unlucky Alf said:

Even if you were the Ref last night Pete and gave a penalty, VAR would have over turned it...why...it was outside the box...simple

No read the other posts the contact continued well inside the box. The rules say the ref must award a penalty. 
 

https://www.sportskeeda.com/football/football-5-rules-most-fans-confused-unaware-about

holding in this context means any unlawful impediment to a player going forwards, not just grappling with the hands. 

Edited December 11, 2022 by PistoldPete

[Old Spalding Ram]

I must admit the referee was poor.  The fact that he had to be dragged kicking and screaming to the VAR screen to see a prime example of common assault on Mason Mount says quite a bit about Sampaio!??

Edited December 11, 2022 by Old Spalding Ram

[Wolfie20]

7 hours ago, PistoldPete said:

Here is the letter of the FA  law 12.3 on Advantage:

"If a defender starts holding an attacker outside the penalty area and continues holding inside the penalty area, the referee must award a penalty kick".

So you are wrong, I'm afraid. 
 

 

I didn't see any 'holding' which that law seems to refer specifically to. It certainly appeared to be a tangling of legs caused by the defender so presumably that rule is irrelevant.

I've yet to see an angle of the incident other the side-line view which the tv showed and that view was inconclusive with regard to the start of the foul being inside or outside the line.

 

 

[ariotofmyown]

42 minutes ago, SillyBilly said:

I would say on Southgate though the assessment of his tenure will not be done by Engerlund fans, it will be when he leaves post and evaluates options at club level. And to be honest, I'd be very surprised if he is in the mix for any top jobs, I'd even be surprised if he was fancied at mid-level premier league. So we'll see what the football world thinks of the job he has done.

I think that there are big differences between a top club manager and a top international manager, especially with the sort of intense managers like Pep and Klopp.

There is little time to develop new tactical systems and a large part of the job is building squad unity. Little use in the skill of identifying the type of player you need to buy. England have a pool of about 40 good players to choose from and you have to make that work.

You pretty much have 1 trophy to win every 2 years and there are no league tables to show progress.

I very much doubt Dechamps will get a big job either if he leaves after winning 2 world cups on the row.

[Mr Tibbs]

A game of fine margins but as well as I thought we played it's still so very classic England in tournament football. We're never on the right side of the result against the big boys are we. 

As for Southgate, not sure where I stand at the moment. I thought this would be his last tournament and if I'm honest I expected us to have a bit of a stinker, following the last Nations League performances we had running up to this. But after it's all said and done I think we had a good tournament and lost to one of the best teams, no disgrace at all. Manoeuvred the group easily and made easy work of the first knock out round. I don't have the same feeling as I did after the Italy game where I thought Southgate could have done more. 

Southgate's not a top class manager but he's a really good fit for this England team I feel. I'm not sure it's as simple as getting rid and unleashing our attacking players on the world to win a tournament. 

On another note, how bad has Mason Mount looked this WC? Looks miles away from being international quality. Can't say I see much of him at Chelsea, so no idea how he plays in the PL, but he's been a real disappointment every time I've watched him this WC. 

[TigerTedd]

54 minutes ago, SillyBilly said:

I think your post is fair, it is always raw after the exit. It was a good performance last night, but it hurt because we bottled it from the spot, again. 

I would say on Southgate though the assessment of his tenure will not be done by Engerlund fans, it will be when he leaves post and evaluates options at club level. And to be honest, I'd be very surprised if he is in the mix for any top jobs, I'd even be surprised if he was fancied at mid-level premier league. So we'll see what the football world thinks of the job he has done. They may assess it that with the players at his disposal the job he has done doesn't qualify him for a look in at their football club. If Warne was sacked tomorrow and we got Southgate linked to us, how many of us would be excited about the future? I'll be honest, I wouldn't be, and this is an England football manager and we're in League One! 

 

Maybe you’re right. Southgate was a fairly crap manager at club level. I think it takes a different type of manager to manage a country. Pep could potentially be a rubbish international manager, for example. You need a lot of different skills at international level, and yes, diplomacy is one of them. Brian clough probably would’ve been a rubbish England manager too.

If he doesn’t win anything during his time here, and it’s another 60 years before we win anything, we’ll always be wondering, would a different manager have got better results?

Likewise, Southgate may have done a better job than Sven and Capello with the golden generation. We’ll never know. There’s always an enquiry unless you win. There’s always things you could’ve done differently. 

[Comrade 86]

32 minutes ago, SillyBilly said:

Do you disagree that the top clubs in England (or in Europe for that matter) will rate Southgate? I'd be interested on your view on that as not commented on the key thrust of that post and instead brought us onto a different topic by asking a question of Steve M, obfuscating somewhat on the main point I was making.

On Steve McClaren, I liked his football and style of play and yes he did do well for us IMV. I also think this generation of England players is much better and less overhyped than what came before, considerably so infact. Warne is a proven winner at this level so I think we made the right call there, if not for this season but for next, like Southgate his football may not always be pleasing on the eye but I'd not see the point to change someone who has stellar L1 pedigree, was an excellent decision by Clowes for the medium term IMO. In Clowes and Warne I trust fully.

It's obfuscating to waffle about the judgements of the top 5 clubs in the PL matey. Do they all have English managers for a start?

As for my comments on Schtive, the point I was making, which is entirely valid given you have raised the somewhat irrelevant query about Southgate's suitability for Derby, is that a far less successful England manager did rather well for us. Equally, I made it clear that I was not downplaying Warne, but rather giving credit to Southgate. If you wish to address what I've actually written, please do, but otherwise let's leave it here as there's only so many ways I can say the same thing.

[PistoldPete]

36 minutes ago, Wolfie20 said:

I didn't see any 'holding' which that law seems to refer specifically to. It certainly appeared to be a tangling of legs caused by the defender so presumably that rule is irrelevant.

I've yet to see an angle of the incident other the side-line view which the tv showed and that view was inconclusive with regard to the start of the foul being inside or outside the line.

 

 

But it’s irrelevant when the foul started. It ended in the box and there is clear evidence to that effect. Holding in that context means any impediment not just gripping with the hands as other references have pointed out. And as you would expect why would it be different rules for different types of foul?

[SillyBilly]

 

23 minutes ago, TigerTedd said:

Maybe you’re right. Southgate was a fairly crap manager at club level. I think it takes a different type of manager to manage a country. Pep could potentially be a rubbish international manager, for example. You need a lot of different skills at international level, and yes, diplomacy is one of them. Brian clough probably would’ve been a rubbish England manager too.

If he doesn’t win anything during his time here, and it’s another 60 years before we win anything, we’ll always be wondering, would a different manager have got better results?

Likewise, Southgate may have done a better job than Sven and Capello with the golden generation. We’ll never know. There’s always an enquiry unless you win. There’s always things you could’ve done differently. 

FWIW I am not saying he is a bad manager (did okay at Boro overall) albeit I don't agree judging someone by past performance (of England) is of much relevance when generations of players give different opportunties. By the same token it'd be akin to judging ex Man City managers by the standards of Pep, as great as he undoubtably is, he has had the support to bring in the very best players in the world so you would expect them to be winning some trophies now.

I agree with your point too. I can agree that international vs club is totally different incidentally too and also the matter of whether any top club level managers would want to manage international is again another matter i.e. could we do better, and if so, whom? I was making the point that Gareth would not be in the running for top European club level jobs, I don't think that is even a particularly contentious viewpoint, short of throwing curveballs to divert from it; I think most would accept that is more than probable likely to be the case. Perhaps a job at someone like Middlesborough (where he has history) in the Champ would be an entry point back into club level for him. And that isn't a bad job. Maybe he can get a mid level Prem team and surprise me, I don't know.