The Ukraine War

[Highgate]

1 hour ago, uttoxram75 said:

Working class people will die in battle and/or be left in abject poverty while the billionaires and oligarchs will create more wealth for themselves.

We never learn.

As a general rule yes and I'd agree those Russian soldiers should never been at war in the first place.  Mere pawns unfortunately, like many soldiers before them.  

But in this particular war, I think the vast majority of the Russian oligarchs would much rather it had never started at all. They have lost a lot of wealth (and some obviously have fallen out of windows), and sanctions have been imposed upon them making it difficult for them to do business abroad.  Obviously I don't feel too much sympathy for their financial troubles...but if we are looking to place the blame for this tragic war, then really it's all on Putin. 

[Ramarena]

2 hours ago, uttoxram75 said:

ftfy.

That may well be the case, who really knows with Russia?

Many are also “criminals” released from prison to serve in the army.  Some of these criminals may be just working class folk who’s only crime is to have spoken out against the regime. Some may be murders and rapists.

Ultimately, these people, whatever class they are, have been sent to Ukraine to kill soldiers and civilians and take Ukrainian land.

I would say if they get the chance to surrender, they should do it. I’d much prefer my chances in the Ukrainian surrender programme than in the Russian army.

[Ramarena]

Had to go back and search out this one, but imagine being in this guys position?

A Zambian student in a Russian prison on a “drugs offence” who ended up being recruited by Wagner to go fight.

Going to war and facing a likely death was better than being a Zambian in a Russian prison……………that’s of course if he had the choice!

https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2022/12/9/zambian-killed-in-ukraine-was-pardoned-russian-prisoner-official

 

 

[Ramarena]

1 hour ago, Crewton said:

I think the more pertinent question is : are the majority of the new conscripts still drawn from the poorer, remote republics a long, long way from Moscow, or are recent recruits now more drawn from 'European' Russia? If it's the latter, that's more likely to affect public opinion overall than the former if there continues to be heavy casualties.

They are doing all they can to avoid recruiting from Moscow and St Petersburg areas.

Itll be interesting to see if the Ukrainian claims of a new mobilsation and closure of the borders to stop emigration to avoid it, turn out to be true.

[uttoxram75]

1 hour ago, Highgate said:

As a general rule yes and I'd agree those Russian soldiers should never been at war in the first place.  Mere pawns unfortunately, like many soldiers before them.  

But in this particular war, I think the vast majority of the Russian oligarchs would much rather it had never started at all. They have lost a lot of wealth (and some obviously have fallen out of windows), and sanctions have been imposed upon them making it difficult for them to do business abroad.  Obviously I don't feel too much sympathy for their financial troubles...but if we are looking to place the blame for this tragic war, then really it's all on Putin. 

Whatever happens to millions of innocent people during the war, whether they suffer as conscripts or impoverished civilians, one thing is certain. The rulers of both countries will still be multi-millionaires. We know all about Putin of course, but Zelensky is also part of the "club".

https://www.occrp.org/en/the-pandora-papers/pandora-papers-reveal-offshore-holdings-of-ukrainian-president-and-his-inner-circle

I'm not excusing Russian aggression btw, far from it. I'm just putting a tired and cynical view out there from a tired and cynical old man  that the very rich always benefit from wars, always have. 

There'll be many "oligarchs" from around the world who will also benefit massively from arms sales to energy costs and food prices from the conflict. 

Happy days for the mega rich rulers who oversee us all, death and misery for the majority.

Twas always so.

 

Right, I've had a pisspoor week at work but now the weekend is here, a few beers with friends tomorrow and I'll be at the match on Sunday to cheer on our inevitable march to FA Cup victory and promise not to post anymore miserableness.

[Tamworthram]

1 hour ago, uttoxram75 said:

Whatever happens to millions of innocent people during the war, whether they suffer as conscripts or impoverished civilians, one thing is certain. The rulers of both countries will still be multi-millionaires. We know all about Putin of course, but Zelensky is also part of the "club".

https://www.occrp.org/en/the-pandora-papers/pandora-papers-reveal-offshore-holdings-of-ukrainian-president-and-his-inner-circle

I'm not excusing Russian aggression btw, far from it. I'm just putting a tired and cynical view out there from a tired and cynical old man  that the very rich always benefit from wars, always have. 

There'll be many "oligarchs" from around the world who will also benefit massively from arms sales to energy costs and food prices from the conflict. 

Happy days for the mega rich rulers who oversee us all, death and misery for the majority.

Twas always so.

 

Right, I've had a pisspoor week at work but now the weekend is here, a few beers with friends tomorrow and I'll be at the match on Sunday to cheer on our inevitable march to FA Cup victory and promise not to post anymore miserableness.

There doesn't appear to be any doubt that Zelensky and his cronies are also wealthy men but is there anything to suggest he has benefited financially from the war?

[Ram-Alf]

2 hours ago, uttoxram75 said:

 I'm just putting a tired and cynical view out there from a tired and cynical old man  that the very rich always benefit from wars, always have. 

 

I had family on both sides in WW2...you might be surprised by this story...and if you have any...bin em ?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15008682

[uttoxram75]

31 minutes ago, The Last Post said:

I had family on both sides in WW2...you might be surprised by this story...and if you have any...bin em ?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15008682

No surprise mate. Many wealthy people get richer during wartime.

[uttoxram75]

1 hour ago, Tamworthram said:

There doesn't appear to be any doubt that Zelensky and his cronies are also wealthy men but is there anything to suggest he has benefited financially from the war?

No idea Tamworth, just cynical old me thinking aloud. He was elected on an anticorruption ticket while stashing millions in tax havens, forgive me for thinking all these types are the same!

[i-Ram]

1 hour ago, Tamworthram said:

There doesn't appear to be any doubt that Zelensky and his cronies are also wealthy men but is there anything to suggest he has benefited financially from the war?

Well he did take a 2 day break in Washington. That will probably be enough evidence for our socialist friends to conclude he is a closet Tory.

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

1 hour ago, The Last Post said:

I had family on both sides in WW2...you might be surprised by this story...and if you have any...bin em ?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15008682

Henry Ford.  Hated jews .  Made loads of cash arming Germany and the same arming the allied invasion. Britain finally paid the bill after about 50 years.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/daily/nov98/nazicars30.htm

[Highgate]

4 hours ago, uttoxram75 said:

Whatever happens to millions of innocent people during the war, whether they suffer as conscripts or impoverished civilians, one thing is certain. The rulers of both countries will still be multi-millionaires. We know all about Putin of course, but Zelensky is also part of the "club".

https://www.occrp.org/en/the-pandora-papers/pandora-papers-reveal-offshore-holdings-of-ukrainian-president-and-his-inner-circle

I'm not excusing Russian aggression btw, far from it. I'm just putting a tired and cynical view out there from a tired and cynical old man  that the very rich always benefit from wars, always have. 

There'll be many "oligarchs" from around the world who will also benefit massively from arms sales to energy costs and food prices from the conflict. 

Happy days for the mega rich rulers who oversee us all, death and misery for the majority.

Twas always so.

Right, I've had a pisspoor week at work but now the weekend is here, a few beers with friends tomorrow and I'll be at the match on Sunday to cheer on our inevitable march to FA Cup victory and promise not to post anymore miserableness.

I remember an interview I heard with an ex American soldier (Eckerman I think his name was), who argued in his book that if the US were to introduce a fair draft system to populate it's army, rather than depending on volunteers (usually from social classes who are in need of the work), that the US would be far more reluctant to go to war.  When those in congress, business leaders and media moguls, would suddenly have to consider the possibility that their own family members might actually have to fight the war, rather than just some expendable group of people with whom they have no connection, then they would surely be less gung-ho about military adventures and occupations abroad. 

I'm actually entirely against military conscription it all it's form and this It seems very unlikely to happen anytime soon, but it is a thought that serves to illustrate the fact that the burden of fighting wars always seems to fall disproportionally on the poor, whereas the decision to go to war is nearly always made by the rich.  

[uttoxram75]

14 minutes ago, Highgate said:

I remember an interview I heard with an ex American soldier (Eckerman I think his name was), who argued in his book that if the US were to introduce a fair draft system to populate it's army, rather than depending on volunteers (usually from social classes who are in need of the work), that the US would be far more reluctant to go to war.  When those in congress, business leaders and media moguls, would suddenly have to consider the possibility that their own family members might actually have to fight the war, rather than just some expendable group of people with whom they have no connection, then they would surely be less gung-ho about military adventures and occupations abroad. 

I'm actually entirely against military conscription it all it's form and this It seems very unlikely to happen anytime soon, but it is a thought that serves to illustrate the fact that the burden of fighting wars always seems to fall disproportionally on the poor, whereas the decision to go to war is nearly always made by the rich.  

George Bush and Donald Trump both dodged the Vietnam draft. The ruling families never sent their own sons to war.

[Archied]

6 hours ago, Highgate said:

I remember an interview I heard with an ex American soldier (Eckerman I think his name was), who argued in his book that if the US were to introduce a fair draft system to populate it's army, rather than depending on volunteers (usually from social classes who are in need of the work), that the US would be far more reluctant to go to war.  When those in congress, business leaders and media moguls, would suddenly have to consider the possibility that their own family members might actually have to fight the war, rather than just some expendable group of people with whom they have no connection, then they would surely be less gung-ho about military adventures and occupations abroad. 

I'm actually entirely against military conscription it all it's form and this It seems very unlikely to happen anytime soon, but it is a thought that serves to illustrate the fact that the burden of fighting wars always seems to fall disproportionally on the poor, whereas the decision to go to war is nearly always made by the rich.  

Well I got slated on here a while back for stating that conscription should be outlawed and a war crime , perhaps because I said it in reference to the Russian conscription being no worse than Ukraine doing the same earlier , wars would pretty much end if that were the case unless of course your prince Harry taking out chess pieces with a button like a computer game ,

and yes in the words of Steve Earle ,,, they draft the white trash first round here anyway 

[Tamworthram]

9 hours ago, uttoxram75 said:

No idea Tamworth, just cynical old me thinking aloud. He was elected on an anticorruption ticket while stashing millions in tax havens, forgive me for thinking all these types are the same!

I’m seriously beginning to doubt your right wing capitalist credentials comrade Uttox. ?

[Ram-Alf]

10 hours ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

Henry Ford.  Hated jews .  Made loads of cash arming Germany and the same arming the allied invasion. Britain finally paid the bill after about 50 years.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/daily/nov98/nazicars30.htm

Lend lease, Also along with many others was Charles Lindbergh(watch the Lindberg baby)who supported the Nazis this ending with his downfall

[Ram-Alf]

9 hours ago, uttoxram75 said:

George Bush and Donald Trump both dodged the Vietnam draft. The ruling families never sent their own sons to war.

Not forgetting JFK and the shenanigans his Father played when his Son was serving in WW2

[EtoileSportiveDeDerby]

Really good documentary on BBC2 this week about civilians joining the army and involved in front line war in Ukraine

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m001grdw/ukraine-the-peoples-fight

 

[Crewton]

"Ukrainian conscription" is a bit of a myth. Reservists were called up just before Russia invaded, and the military has tried to coerce men into joining up in some areas, but there doesn't appear to be any effective follow-up system, unlike, say, the US system used for Vietnam. 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jul/06/ukraines-military-plans-to-limit-free-movement-to-make-conscription-easier

Russian conscription, on the other hand, is far more systematic and increasingly broader, though it still seems to be focused on the poorer regions and the sons of the elite are still able to dodge the draft apparently. 

It's just another example of how Ukraine is defending itself at a disadvantage. 

[Ramarena]

14 hours ago, i-Ram said:

Well he did take a 2 day break in Washington. That will probably be enough evidence for our socialist friends to conclude he is a closet Tory.

I thought the democrats and “sleepy Joe” were left wing antifa extremists?