The Ukraine War

[Leeds Ram]

2 hours ago, Alpha said:

I do feel a bit like posting pictures some of the thousands of drone strikes worth of damage done by America. 

Of all the orphans, the homeless, the dead civilians caused by America. 

Of the human side to Napalm strikes and atomic bombs. 

But as @Stive Pesleyquite rightly points out.. to do that basically can only be taken as feck Ukraine it's about time The East fought back. 

But at the same time nobody gives a feck. 

Palestinians getting slaughtered? Famine in Afghanistan? Iraq towns looking like a an apocalypse movie? That just happens. Thats what those crazy Muslims do, they blow stuff up. They love a good war over in the Middle East. 

When is a good time to bring up the nation sitting at the top of the Warmonger leaderboard? Now is insensitive but it feels like nobody engages with it unless there's a situation like this. 

Korean War, Cuban Missile Crisis, Vietnam, Dominican Republic, Lebanon, Grenada, Panama, Gulf War, Somalia, Haiti, Bosnia, Kosovo, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria and then we talk about their support of rebellions and such. The support of Israel.

How many civilians have died under their aggressive military campaigns. Some of these military operations make sense and others not so much. But we don't put it under microscope like we are Ukraine. We don't tell the human side of these conflicts. 

Some of them are glorified in Hollywood!! Let's not even pretend domestically America is bliss. The racial tensions, the extreme wealth and poverty, the health care, the gun crime... it's rich to be playing world police.

So frustrating. But yeah... doesn't make Putin anything like right. 

I'm going to America in May ? 

The funny thing about your examples of the supposed warmongers in chief is that plenty of them weren't started by the United States and/or were protective military actions of civilians. None of these were aggressive wars of territorial expansion like the one we're seeing currently. 

[Rev]

25 minutes ago, Leeds Ram said:

Is it simple side taking or is it because China's a genocidal territorially aggressive authoritarian nightmare and Russia is a territorially aggressive authoritarian country? Maybe people liberal democracy i.e., people having choices about how they live and how they are governed is a good thing and believe that the international principle of r2p is worth implementing. 

It's been one of my bug bears about this thread, the use of false equivalences (Iraq was the same etc.) when it's absolutely morally and geopolitically nowhere near the same thing with what is happening in Ukraine right now. 

I might be misunderstanding you, but if not can you point me in the direction of a single war China has started with the intention of expanding their territory?

[Highgate]

18 minutes ago, Leeds Ram said:

Is it simple side taking or is it because China's a genocidal territorially aggressive authoritarian nightmare and Russia is a territorially aggressive authoritarian country? Maybe people liberal democracy i.e., people having choices about how they live and how they are governed is a good thing and believe that the international principle of r2p is worth implementing. 

It's been one of my bug bears about this thread, the use of false equivalences (Iraq was the same etc.) when it's absolutely morally and geopolitically nowhere near the same thing with what is happening in Ukraine right now. 

I think you are right they are not equivalent, especially if Putin is attempting to annex part or all of Ukraine into Russia and if he really believes that there is no such thing as the Ukrainian nation in the first place.  Those factors certainly weren't involved in Iraq for example.
However I think your own opinion on Iraq is something of an outlier, if you still regard it as a humanitarian intervention by the West (i.e...done entirely in the interests of the Iraqi people), which most people would consider a somewhat naive view to hold in 2022.  Forgive me if that is not your actually your perspective but I know I read it somewhere on this thread.

I think the general point about national biases is a good one.  It's easier for the citizens of any country, to criticize the actions of foreign countries...while being much less willing to criticize their own countries wrongdoings.  That just seems to be human nature as well as the influence of biased national medias all over the world.  That doesn't mean that the wrongs countries are committing are equivalent in type or scale..

 

[Leeds Ram]

21 minutes ago, Rev said:

I might be misunderstanding you, but if not can you point me in the direction of a single war China has started with the intention of expanding their territory?

China's certainly been territorially aggressive in the case of regional territories that they contest as their own such as Tibet and Xinjiang that has led to abominable crimes that have been committed on and off for decades. Any google search would give you plenty of information. I'd be happy to try and dig out some of my university essays on the subject if I can still find them on my hard drive.  Their plays in the region have become more overt in recent years and have increasingly beefed up their threat in Taiwan and to neighbouring territories not far off their coast. 

[Leeds Ram]

14 minutes ago, Highgate said:

I think you are right they are not equivalent, especially if Putin is attempting to annex part or all of Ukraine into Russia and if he really believes that there is no such thing as the Ukrainian nation in the first place.  Those factors certainly weren't involved in Iraq for example.
However I think your own opinion on Iraq is something of an outlier, if you still regard it as a humanitarian intervention by the West (i.e...done entirely in the interests of the Iraqi people), which most people would consider a somewhat naive view to hold in 2022.  Forgive me if that is not your actually your perspective but I know I read it somewhere on this thread.

I think the general point about national biases is a good one.  It's easier for the citizens of any country, to criticize the actions of foreign countries...while being much less willing to criticize their own countries wrongdoings.  That just seems to be human nature as well as the influence of biased national medias all over the world.  That doesn't mean that the wrongs countries are committing are equivalent in type or scale..

 

I did say Libya was a humanitarian intervention (it was explicitly endorsed under the doctrine of r2p by the UNSC). I do have a view about the Iraq invasion that is in the minority opinion yes, I don't believe it was explicitly done for the cause of humanitarian intervention but as a liberal interventionist I support the principle of the Iraq invasion. The commonly held myth that Iraq was done for oil is a nonsensical proposition but I realise that might be getting off topic. 

[Highgate]

5 minutes ago, Leeds Ram said:

I did say Libya was a humanitarian intervention (it was explicitly endorsed under the doctrine of r2p by the UNSC). I do have a view about the Iraq invasion that is in the minority opinion yes, I don't believe it was explicitly done for the cause of humanitarian intervention but as a liberal interventionist I support the principle of the Iraq invasion. The commonly held myth that Iraq was done for oil is a nonsensical proposition but I realise that might be getting off topic. 

Yeah....we are off topic now, my fault entirely.  I don't agree about Iraq at all, although I agree that oil wasn't the principle reason for the invasion either.  Either way, whether the West was right or wrong in Iraq (it was totally wrong.......sorry couldn't help it ?), it's pretty clear that Putin is entirely in the wrong now.  And Zelensky is definitely no Saddam Hussein....he seems like a pretty decent leader of a country to me, even though Ukraine certainly did have it's problems even before this invasion.

[Leeds Ram]

5 minutes ago, Highgate said:

Yeah....we are off topic now, my fault entirely.  I don't agree about Iraq at all, although I agree that oil wasn't the principle reason for the invasion either.  Either way, whether the West was right or wrong in Iraq (it was totally wrong.......sorry couldn't help it ?), it's pretty clear that Putin is entirely in the wrong now.  And Zelensky is definitely no Saddam Hussein....he seems like a pretty decent leader of a country to me, even though Ukraine certainly did have it's problems even before this invasion.

Nah not just you mate ? Yeah, I definitely accept I am in a very small minority in my views on Iraq haha ? Agree on Putin and Ukraine with you ? 

[Alph]

9 hours ago, Leeds Ram said:

The funny thing about your examples of the supposed warmongers in chief is that plenty of them weren't started by the United States and/or were protective military actions of civilians. None of these were aggressive wars of territorial expansion like the one we're seeing currently. 

There's nothing funny about countless dead civilians and destroyed infrastructure. 

I'm not going to argue with you any further though. If you are in the minority over Iraq then it would be like arguing with someone directly from the Whitehouse

Rome built an empire on defending the innocent, defending allies and placing pro Roman governments. I've seen how Israel has grown in size by defending itself. Funding and supporting proxy wars to avoid direct military intervention isn't a new strategy either 

We won't agree on it and we will just end up derailing the thread in petty arguing so I'll try to keep it about Ukraine from now on

Because Putin claims to there defensively. Missiles on his doorstep, military installations on his doorstep, attacks on the independence of DPR and LPR. The defence of Crimea. And none of it justifies this war. I don't how it justifies shelling Ukrainian cities. That's something I'm sure we can agree on and is the point of the thread. It shouldnt be "what about them!" 

Putin talks like he's at war with America and The West. But it's not Americans or Westerners (yet) being killed. It's "little Russia". Can't make sense of it. 

 

[Bob The Badger]

1 hour ago, Alpha said:

There's nothing funny about countless dead civilians and destroyed infrastructure. 

In fairness, I think @Leeds Ram was probably using this definition of the word funny.

Difficult to explain or understand; strange or odd.

 

[Alph]

16 minutes ago, Bob The Badger said:

In fairness, I think @Leeds Ram was probably using this definition of the word funny.

Difficult to explain or understand; strange or odd.

 

Yeah, I agree. I did twist it a little to try to illustrate the irony in a humanitarian military operation can to lead to many civilians deaths in America's intervention. 

That was a bit of a dick move by me

But anyway, Ukraine..

Edited March 8, 2022 by Alpha

[Bob The Badger]

29 minutes ago, Alpha said:

Yeah, I agree. I did twist it a little to try to illustrate the irony in a humanitarian military operation can to lead to many civilians deaths in America's intervention. 

That was a bit of a dick move by me

But anyway, Ukraine..

I've made world-class dick moves in my time, and no doubt will moving forward.

I haven't quite got the pace I once had, but I can still spot an opening for one and thread it in there with precision.

[Leeds Ram]

2 hours ago, Alpha said:

There's nothing funny about countless dead civilians and destroyed infrastructure. 

I'm not going to argue with you any further though. If you are in the minority over Iraq then it would be like arguing with someone directly from the Whitehouse

Rome built an empire on defending the innocent, defending allies and placing pro Roman governments. I've seen how Israel has grown in size by defending itself. Funding and supporting proxy wars to avoid direct military intervention isn't a new strategy either 

We won't agree on it and we will just end up derailing the thread in petty arguing so I'll try to keep it about Ukraine from now on

Because Putin claims to there defensively. Missiles on his doorstep, military installations on his doorstep, attacks on the independence of DPR and LPR. The defence of Crimea. And none of it justifies this war. I don't how it justifies shelling Ukrainian cities. That's something I'm sure we can agree on and is the point of the thread. It shouldnt be "what about them!" 

Putin talks like he's at war with America and The West. But it's not Americans or Westerners (yet) being killed. It's "little Russia". Can't make sense of it. 

 

I didn't mean 'funny' as in haha rather I meant it in the sense that is odd or difficult to explain. As you say it's clear there is no point engaging on the topic but factually you can't lay the blame i.e., the first move at a lot of those conflicts you listed (or even non-conflicts) at America's door. That is what i took issue with as that's not an opinion (which we can discuss) but a matter of fact. 

If we stayed on the topic, Putin's 'security concerns' directly affect the democratic sovereign rights of an independent nation. The key term being democratic here I think. There are circumstances when a state can cede its sovereignty internationally but this isn't one of them.  It's just yet another aggressive action by Putin in the name of defence on a neighbouring country that makes everyone understand exactly why those nations want to be in NATO. The Ukrainians definitely need our support as the sheer number of Russian forces shall make it difficult for them to hold out. It's possible to make sense of but this  

[Alph]

41 minutes ago, Leeds Ram said:

I didn't mean 'funny' as in haha rather I meant it in the sense that is odd or difficult to explain. As you say it's clear there is no point engaging on the topic but factually you can't lay the blame i.e., the first move at a lot of those conflicts you listed (or even non-conflicts) at America's door. That is what i took issue with as that's not an opinion (which we can discuss) but a matter of fact. 

If we stayed on the topic, Putin's 'security concerns' directly affect the democratic sovereign rights of an independent nation. The key term being democratic here I think. There are circumstances when a state can cede its sovereignty internationally but this isn't one of them.  It's just yet another aggressive action by Putin in the name of defence on a neighbouring country that makes everyone understand exactly why those nations want to be in NATO. The Ukrainians definitely need our support as the sheer number of Russian forces shall make it difficult for them to hold out. It's possible to make sense of but this  

A nation that drops atomic bombs, Napalm strikes and kills thousands of civilians in war crimes committed in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan including detaining and torturing people without reasonable cause gets to play world police. 

The country that's sent billions of dollars in aid to Israel. 

This nation has been in almost 400 military conflicts, has spent more than 90% of its existence involved in a conflict, has 750 military bases in 80 countries. 

It picks and chooses who and where deserves it humanitarian aid (fact). 

It is consistently involved in Proxy wars. Including the support of rebellions in Afghanistan (including via Pakistan) supplying military equipment from late 1970's. Interestingly supporting Islamist group who shared good relations with Osama Bin Laden. 

This among other proxy wars and destabilisation.

This is a nation I "factually" can't blame for starting fights? 

To me it sounds like I actually can. Because the issues are far too complex for you to just shut down an opinion. And it's an opinion shared by many in the evil East and a few within American politics. 

I'm happy to disagree. But what you call facts, I don't. There's many way to initiate conflicts without firing the first bullet. 

[Leeds Ram]

23 minutes ago, Alpha said:

A nation that drops atomic bombs, Napalm strikes and kills thousands of civilians in war crimes committed in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan including detaining and torturing people without reasonable cause gets to play world police. 

The country that's sent billions of dollars in aid to Israel. 

This nation has been in almost 400 military conflicts, has spent more than 90% of its existence involved in a conflict, has 750 military bases in 80 countries. 

It picks and chooses who and where deserves it humanitarian aid (fact). 

It is consistently involved in Proxy wars. Including the support of rebellions in Afghanistan (including via Pakistan) supplying military equipment from late 1970's. Interestingly supporting Islamist group who shared good relations with Osama Bin Laden. 

This among other proxy wars and destabilisation.

This is a nation I "factually" can't blame for starting fights? 

To me it sounds like I actually can. Because the issues are far too complex for you to just shut down an opinion. And it's an opinion shared by many in the evil East and a few within American politics. 

I'm happy to disagree. But what you call facts, I don't. There's many way to initiate conflicts without firing the first bullet. 

I mean the US never gave a penny to Bin Laden  but as you said that's for another day. Bin Laden cultivated his own mythology that he was deeply involved in the fight against the Soviets but the reality was he had a small amount of men that barely fought before he shuffled off to the Sudan.... Afghanistan was then plagued with civil war between the various mujahedeen factions until the Taliban came along a while later with the country still technically in a state of civil war when America entered with the Northern Alliance still existing. Al-Qaeda came in after the initial Taliban takeover and largely based themselves there whilst eventually 'franchising' their operations latterly. 

You can't blame the Korean war (the North first advanced on the south), the first Gulf war (Iraq invaded Kuwait) Bosnia and Kosovo (US were initially reluctant to intervene in the genocide that was taking place but eventually did) Afghanistan (The Taliban refused to hand over Bin Laden following years of attacks on the American military sites and it's was a widely agreed upon action) Libya (A UN sanctioned operation under the doctrine of R2P that began because of the threats made to slaughter the civilian populace) or Syria (no real idea what you're pinning on America here tbh given their very limited response to mass slaughter by Assad) on America. They didn't initiate those conflicts which was my point and that is a fact.

 

Now we could debate another day about the methodology used to fight those conflicts or their support of Israel or their deployment of humanitarian aid.  There could also be a debate about the nature of proxy wars and US foreign policy in general as there are lots of variable viewpoints that are totally legitimate. But not everything is an opinion, there are facts. It's the 'is-ought' gap that rears its head in political theory, philosophy but also political science. Not everything is an opinion, there are some things that are and some things that aren't. So no you can't really blame the US for starting those fights listed above because they didn't. 

Edited March 8, 2022 by Leeds Ram

[Ram-Alf]

I've just wandered on here to see what's the posters take on Ukraine, Learned some stuff I have...Anyway may I take a little time for my thoughts...not on Ukraine or Russia per say but the future for all of us.

As of Yesterday, I did my shopping,  little example, 2 weeks ago a tin of lucheon meat cost myself £1 it's now £1.29p 30% increase. Bread was 85p now £1.10p, Milk £1.05 now £1.15, My shopping bill was £4.50p higher than 2 weeks ago, Not the same goods but I know what's what, Fuel £7.50 per gallon, Gas and Electricity going through the roof, The cost of living is rapidly changing for the worse.

Onto the EU, Sanctions on top of sanctions for Russia, The EU are beholden to Russia for their gas not 100% but not to far off is my guess, €1billion a day did/still does travel to Russia from the EU for their fuel, It's going to get a lot worse economically a lot worse.

Now the reason for my post

The people of Europe/UK have and will do continue to help finacially and so will those Governments with cash and arms, Until it starts to hurt the citizen in their pockets, EU/UK businesses are hurting or may be closing as sanctions start to bite, We don't hear of EU/UK job losses but it's there as trade is cut off from Russia.

Russian citizens may hold the cards as to what the future is going to be but this will take time, But once it becomes financially tough for the EU/UK citizen there may be a different attitude.

Putins invasion has created a situation for profiteering the world over, The same people who are against Putins war, Say one thing in public and do another in private, Just my opinion no facts other than what i've spent this last 2 weeks.

[Stive Pesley]

1 hour ago, Unlucky Alf said:

I've just wandered on here to see what's the posters take on Ukraine, Learned some stuff I have...Anyway may I take a little time for my thoughts...not on Ukraine or Russia per say but the future for all of us.

As of Yesterday, I did my shopping,  little example, 2 weeks ago a tin of lucheon meat cost myself £1 it's now £1.29p 30% increase. Bread was 85p now £1.10p, Milk £1.05 now £1.15, My shopping bill was £4.50p higher than 2 weeks ago, Not the same goods but I know what's what, Fuel £7.50 per gallon, Gas and Electricity going through the roof, The cost of living is rapidly changing for the worse.

Onto the EU, Sanctions on top of sanctions for Russia, The EU are beholden to Russia for their gas not 100% but not to far off is my guess, €1billion a day did/still does travel to Russia from the EU for their fuel, It's going to get a lot worse economically a lot worse.

Now the reason for my post

The people of Europe/UK have and will do continue to help finacially and so will those Governments with cash and arms, Until it starts to hurt the citizen in their pockets, EU/UK businesses are hurting or may be closing as sanctions start to bite, We don't hear of EU/UK job losses but it's there as trade is cut off from Russia.

Russian citizens may hold the cards as to what the future is going to be but this will take time, But once it becomes financially tough for the EU/UK citizen there may be a different attitude.

Putins invasion has created a situation for profiteering the world over, The same people who are against Putins war, Say one thing in public and do another in private, Just my opinion no facts other than what i've spent this last 2 weeks.

I think you're right - the longer this drags on the wider the ripples will spread, until we suddenly find ourselves impacted in ways we couldn't imagine

 

[Ram-Alf]

3 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

I think you're right - the longer this drags on the wider the ripples will spread, until we suddenly find ourselves impacted in ways we couldn't imagine

 

I'm no mystic Meg, On my Mothers side(now passed)was Austrian, They accepted Hitler, Then hated him, The Russians came in once the German army gave up, But this was the Russian mongols, A really hated force, Rapes, Murders you name it they did it, Then the white Russians came in, Pretty much the same but with a little more cunning, Our family when growing up heard all the tales of War from 39-45.

Your comment for me is my fear, The Domino effect will be fiscal for us all, Eventually becoming an arms struggle, Conventional leading to...well lets hope not.

My only hope is that the Russian Army can see where this is going to lead, The West are culpable, A UK major General was on TV last week saying they knew before Xmas that an invasion was on the cards, He said that the Russian Army are struggling to cope, Death and desertion are heading upwards, But this just maybe propaganda.

Makes my heart bleed seeing what's happening in Ukraine, I'd have never thought this could have happened in my lifetime ?

[Highgate]

One of the biggest impacts of this war will be increased military budgets for countries. Entirely understandable given the presence of Putin...but still that's money that will be diverted away from health, education and tackling climate change, so we will all suffer the consequences.

I think Europe gets about 40% of our gas from Russia, there are other options like Azerbaijan, the US, and the Middle East of course....but it seems likely that energy conservation is going to be on the agenda for a lot of countries if this war becomes a long term conflict. Good news for the thermal undies industry I suppose....

[Wolfie]

The more I think about this, the more I conclude that China will be the key to what happens. They haven't been supportive of Putin so far - and have been pushing today for negotiations to start.

They obviously have their own aspirations as far as Taiwan is concerned - and wouldn't want to risk suffering the isolation and economic damage that Russia are experiencing now. I can see a scenario where China looks to broker a peace deal (a bit of good PR for them) and then use that as a template for moving into Taiwan.

Maybe.

[Ram-Alf]

9 minutes ago, Wolfie said:

The more I think about this, the more I conclude that China will be the key to what happens. They haven't been supportive of Putin so far - and have been pushing today for negotiations to start.

They obviously have their own aspirations as far as Taiwan is concerned - and wouldn't want to risk suffering the isolation and economic damage that Russia are experiencing now. I can see a scenario where China looks to broker a peace deal (a bit of good PR for them) and then use that as a template for moving into Taiwan.

Maybe.

Germany wanting to spend €100 billion more on defence, Finland and Sweden wanting to join NATO, China blocking the Premier League last weekend, Not in support of Russia but not wanting their citizens to see huge support for Ukraine, They do not want another Tiananmen Square so keep things quiet.

Taiwan is another concern, China have already built an Island in the South China Sea for their Air support