Mel Morris: an example

[Gritstone Ram]

1 hour ago, duncanjwitham said:

Honestly, I think there are a whole load of issues that lead to administration - Morris-sanctioned overspending (and the way the money was wasted on bad signings and manager merry-go-rounds), Morris's bull-headedness with the EFL, the EFL's incompetence, COVID etc. A fair few were down to Morris, but not all of them.  If you have one or two less of those happening at the same time, then we probably get through this without going into admin. We've either already been sold by now and Morris is gone, or Morris is taking a hit on selling a League 1 club (following points deductions etc).

But like I said, we were overspending in the later GSE years by ~£7m a year, and people were up in arms about the lack of investment.  Imagine what it would be like if we had to cut even more.

You say people were up in arms but if you think back there was a very good team put together that along with a loan George Thorne got to the play off final and should have won. The rest is history but looking back not one big money signing or wages improved upon that season.

[jimtastic56]

42 minutes ago, David said:

As of today, we are still requiring funding of around £1m per month to keep the lights on for a team that without points deduction would be sat in  16th.

One place above a club that's losing over 400k per week.

So before we even think of bringing players into the club to rebuild, we're looking for an owner(s) that are willing to lose a minimum of £12m a year, on top of the purchase price and the stadium.

The minute they walk through the doors, they will have fans in the summer asking for a 20 goal a season striker, a keeper, a centre back, some creative players.

If we pull off the impossible and manage to stay up this season and have any Premier League ambitions?

We have to compete with clubs which could be given up to £45m in the first season they are relegated.

Not impossible, but a tough ask.

So kiss goodbye to the Premier League payday whilst waiting for the next owner to get tired of losing £12m a year for mid table Championship football.

Realise this post isn't exactly on topic, but it's a stark reminder of what we're currently looking for....a benefactor.

Football finances needs to be looked at, stop being seen as unique businesses where it's accepted they lose millions per year.

As @Anon said, player wages, that has to be the starting point. You have Lingard on over £100k a week at United and can't get a game.

That's more than the average household would bring in per year, can Lingard look at himself in a mirror and say the work he has done this week is worth £100k?

Those kind of wages have a trickle down effect into the Championship, it just can't continue any longer and until the world of football comes together and puts a stop to it, Derby County will not be the only club to find itself in this situation.

We need a global wage cap per club and that has to be based on a percentage of turnover, it's unrealistic to ever have a level playing field, Man United can't have the same wage budget as Crystal Palace to get any kind of agreement.

The EFL needs to move first on this, the PL won't as the clubs won't be able to compete in Europe.

Players would be forced to accept lower wages outside the Premier League or find themselves out of work or moving their families abroad. 

72 clubs under it's control, show the football league a sustainable 3 league model and others will follow. 

Whilst we're there, clubs paying agents fees needs to be outlawed, if a player wants an agents services, they pay them directly out their own pocket.

Stoke paid over £5.5m on agent fees between February 1st 2019 and January 31st 2020.

They have also just reported losses of over £90m. 

One morning the Coates family could wake up and pull the plug, what are they gaining from owning Stoke City? The fans are on their backs for poor managerial appointments, signings etc.

Anyway, the tl;dr is football is broken.

Sorry Dave , you are doing what you always do -Trying to divert attention away from MEL. I could have forgiven Mel if he had walked away. But he hasn’t. He has appointed his preferred Admin team, He has left Pearce there to keep his eye on things , and doing God knows what behind the scene’s.

[strawhillram]

7 minutes ago, jimtastic56 said:

Sorry Dave , you are doing what you always do -Trying to divert attention away from MEL. I could have forgiven Mel if he had walked away. But he hasn’t. He has appointed his preferred Admin team, He has left Pearce there to keep his eye on things , and doing God knows what behind the scene’s.

as long as mel is involved behind the scenes, then Gibson and efl wont give an inch. They want him to suffer personally, and as a consquence our club suffers.

Edited February 3, 2022 by StrawHillRam

[Day]

43 minutes ago, David said:

As of today, we are still requiring funding of around £1m per month to keep the lights on for a team that without points deduction would be sat in  16th.

One place above a club that's losing over 400k per week.

So before we even think of bringing players into the club to rebuild, we're looking for an owner(s) that are willing to lose a minimum of £12m a year, on top of the purchase price and the stadium.

The minute they walk through the doors, they will have fans in the summer asking for a 20 goal a season striker, a keeper, a centre back, some creative players.

If we pull off the impossible and manage to stay up this season and have any Premier League ambitions?

We have to compete with clubs which could be given up to £45m in the first season they are relegated.

Not impossible, but a tough ask.

So kiss goodbye to the Premier League payday whilst waiting for the next owner to get tired of losing £12m a year for mid table Championship football.

Realise this post isn't exactly on topic, but it's a stark reminder of what we're currently looking for....a benefactor.

Football finances needs to be looked at, stop being seen as unique businesses where it's accepted they lose millions per year.

As @Anon said, player wages, that has to be the starting point. You have Lingard on over £100k a week at United and can't get a game.

That's more than the average household would bring in per year, can Lingard look at himself in a mirror and say the work he has done this week is worth £100k?

Those kind of wages have a trickle down effect into the Championship, it just can't continue any longer and until the world of football comes together and puts a stop to it, Derby County will not be the only club to find itself in this situation.

We need a global wage cap per club and that has to be based on a percentage of turnover, it's unrealistic to ever have a level playing field, Man United can't have the same wage budget as Crystal Palace to get any kind of agreement.

The EFL needs to move first on this, the PL won't as the clubs won't be able to compete in Europe.

Players would be forced to accept lower wages outside the Premier League or find themselves out of work or moving their families abroad. 

72 clubs under it's control, show the football league a sustainable 3 league model and others will follow. 

Whilst we're there, clubs paying agents fees needs to be outlawed, if a player wants an agents services, they pay them directly out their own pocket.

Stoke paid over £5.5m on agent fees between February 1st 2019 and January 31st 2020.

They have also just reported losses of over £90m. 

One morning the Coates family could wake up and pull the plug, what are they gaining from owning Stoke City? The fans are on their backs for poor managerial appointments, signings etc.

Anyway, the tl;dr is football is broken.

I also would like to acknowledge my enjoyment at the time the overspend was occurring, despite recognising now the game is broken.

I like many wasn’t concerning myself with football finances, we were signing players for big money and pushing for the Premier League, each year having that belief it could be our year. 

Something we was starved of under GSE and were crying out for, football is meant to be fun, exciting, we’re not here for the spreadsheets and balancing of the books.

We had a local guy, pumping millions into the club chasing the dream.

Not one of us knew how much liquid cash he had available, we just assumed that he had enough to do it. Some did, I heard the voices of concern, but they were drowned out by the football on the pitch. 

We’re no different to any other football club in that the cash tap can stop at any point, all those taking the piss now, they could be in administration tomorrow just as easy if the owner(s) say enough is enough. There is not one fan out there that can possibly vouch for unlimited funding from their owner.

I guess until you are in this situation, the reality of the state of the game hits home, the numbers suddenly mean more and you start to question what is the incentive to own a football club?

If every potential football club owner stopped and asked themselves, what is the incentive, what do I have to gain from owning this football club? I fear the game would collapse as nobody would want to touch it outside the Uber rich elite with cash to fuel their egos to burn. 

So yeah, I loved it, I don’t now, and my desire to see this club in the Premier League is probably over now without changes to the game. 

[Day]

9 minutes ago, jimtastic56 said:

Sorry Dave , you are doing what you always do -Trying to divert attention away from MEL. I could have forgiven Mel if he had walked away. But he hasn’t. He has appointed his preferred Admin team, He has left Pearce there to keep his eye on things , and doing God knows what behind the scene’s.

I have very rarely spoken about Mel recently, so that’s not true, is there any part of the post you actually disagree with?

As for Mel walking away, did he not try to do that with no takers? 

 

[Tyler Durden]

9 minutes ago, David said:

I have very rarely spoken about Mel recently, so that’s not true, is there any part of the post you actually disagree with?

As for Mel walking away, did he not try to do that with no takers? 

 

This argument hasn't been followed to its logical conclusion which it needs to - why were there no takers?

[Day]

9 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

This argument hasn't been followed to its logical conclusion which it needs to - why were there no takers?

Wasn’t an argument, just a point which is that he was actively looking to walk away.

Why there wasn’t any takers prior to administration I couldn’t honestly tell you, we could sit here and say the debt, Mel’s demands, EFL issues, covid uncertainty, possibly a mixture of all 4, it would only be a guess.

I know you want me to say overspend, which Mel was responsible for, that will be of course be most likely part of it. However we’re not the only club out there that has spent beyond it’s means, Stoke as I mentioned early £90m in the red, 2 wrongs don’t make a right but this is the game we’re in today. 

Was Mel able to fund the losses over another couple of seasons try and lure out a buyer? Again I wouldn’t know without access to his bank balance, covid took a hit, possibly brought the end to a much faster conclusion. Again it’s complete guesses.

[Tyler Durden]

Just now, David said:

Wasn’t an argument, just a point which is that he was actively looking to walk away.

Why there wasn’t any takers prior to administration I couldn’t honestly tell you, we could sit here and say the debt, Mel’s demands, EFL issues, covid uncertainty, possibly a mixture of all 4, it would only be a guess.

I know you want me to say overspend, which Mel was responsible for, that will be of course be most likely part of it. However we’re not the only club out there that has spent beyond it’s means, Stoke as I mentioned early £90m in the red, 2 wrongs don’t make a right but this is the game we’re in today. 

Was Mel able to fund the losses over another couple of seasons, again I wouldn’t know without access to his bank balance, covid took a hit, possibly brought the end to a much faster conclusion. Again it’s complete guesses.

I would suggest there weren't any takers for the club for one of the following reasons-

Morris was asking too much money for the club

The amount of money Morris was asking for the club was too much

No one would pay the amount of money Morris was asking as it was too much

Take your pick 

[Day]

Just now, Tyler Durden said:

I would suggest there weren't any takers for the club for one of the following reasons-

Morris was asking too much money for the club

The amount of money Morris was asking for the club was too much

No one would pay the amount of money Morris was asking as it was too much

Take your pick 

That’s fine, no arguments against that opinion as I have no proof to either support or argue against that.

I think however it would be naive not to consider the impact of covid as well, even recently during the Omicron wave stadiums were either closed or limited to capacity in Wales and Scotland, there was talk of games behind closed doors again.

Outside the Premier League ticket sales account for a large percentage of a clubs revenue, without that clubs are earning next to nothing.

Even today with the squad we have needs an owner to inject £1m a month to keep the lights on.

Hypothetical situation if Mel walked away, settled the HMRC bill, creditors, took on the Boro and Wycombe claims, gave the stadium with the club all for a pound, clean slate.

The new owner(s) have to pump in £12m a year just to survive with this depleted squad and that increases drastically if games are played behind closed doors which not one of us can predict. Getting double jabbed was meant to be the end of it, will another wave hit in the winter?

[Day]

10 minutes ago, David said:

That’s fine, no arguments against that opinion as I have no proof to either support or argue against that.

I think however it would be naive not to consider the impact of covid as well, even recently during the Omicron wave stadiums were either closed or limited to capacity in Wales and Scotland, there was talk of games behind closed doors again.

Outside the Premier League ticket sales account for a large percentage of a clubs revenue, without that clubs are earning next to nothing.

Even today with the squad we have needs an owner to inject £1m a month to keep the lights on.

Hypothetical situation if Mel walked away, settled the HMRC bill, creditors, took on the Boro and Wycombe claims, gave the stadium with the club all for a pound, clean slate.

The new owner(s) have to pump in £12m a year just to survive with this depleted squad and that increases drastically if games are played behind closed doors which not one of us can predict. Getting double jabbed was meant to be the end of it, will another wave hit in the winter?

Extra thought to add on to this would be, if we’re looking for an owner that could run the club financially stable, no losses, the door would be open to a lot more potential owners. 

However given the state the game is in, it’s hard to be sustainable in the Championship and be competitive, so I go back to where is the incentive to owning a football club of this size?

An owner(s) walks in and says, from now on we spend what we earn, if that means relegation so be it, there would be uproar and even if you wouldn’t personally be @Tyler Durden

If you disagree with that, go look when the Sheikh was first rumoured, go look at the posts where fans are complaining they don’t have the money, pfft millionaires not billionaires, why would you need a billionaire to run a sustainable football club?

I don’t believe a sustainable football club is what fans really want, I think they want a multi billionaire that will cover any losses for eternity, absolutely no threat of getting bored or running out of cash.

[RoyMac5]

7 minutes ago, David said:

An owner(s) walks in and says, from now on we spend what we earn, if that means relegation so be it, there would be uproar and even if you wouldn’t personally be @Tyler Durden

If you disagree with that, go look when the Sheikh was first rumoured, go look at the posts where fans are complaining they don’t have the money, pfft millionaires not billionaires, why would you need a billionaire to run a sustainable football club?

I don’t believe a sustainable football club is what fans really want, I think they want a multi billionaire that will cover any losses for eternity, absolutely no threat of getting bored or running out of cash.

What most fans might hope for is a combination of the two.

If we started again - oh you know new owner - what would our financial state be? I can't see why with a manager with Rooney's connections we shouldn't be able to play some decent football. We've seen lots of clubs be promoted and relegated from the Championship but not many driven to the brink of liquidation.

All that we are now suffering has been caused by one owner, running us as though he had 'billionaire funds'. If not for covid he'd have had no excuse for quitting us, even though he promised he wouldn't.

So Mel Morris is to blame for another business going into administration. 

[Day]

Just now, RoyMac5 said:

What most fans might hope for is a combination of the two.

If we started again - oh you know new owner - what would our financial state be? I can't see why with a manager with Rooney's connections we shouldn't be able to play some decent football. We've seen lots of clubs be promoted and relegated from the Championship but not many driven to the brink of liquidation.

All that we are now suffering has been caused by one owner, running us as though he had 'billionaire funds'. If not for covid he'd have had no excuse for quitting us, even though he promised he wouldn't.

So Mel Morris is to blame for another business going into administration. 

You can’t have a combination of the two, you can’t be sustainable and lose money.

You can have not losing as much money as we were, but we’re still losing and expecting an owner(s) to inject money each month to cover the losses, so I’ll ask again, what is the incentive?

The more you spend, the better odds you have competing with parachute payments, so if we rule out that and just try to stay in the Championship, it’s a ticking time bomb until the funds run out and you move on to the next.

Obviously spending less, less debts will make it easier to sell the club, but surely we will reach a point where the queue of rich people wanting to own a club has been drained.

[RoyMac5]

Just now, David said:

You can’t have a combination of the two, you can’t be sustainable and lose money.

You can have not losing as much money as we were, but we’re still losing and expecting an owner(s) to inject money each month to cover the losses, so I’ll ask again, what is the incentive?

The more you spend, the better odds you have competing with parachute payments, so if we rule out that and just try to stay in the Championship, it’s a ticking time bomb until the funds run out and you move on to the next.

Obviously spending less, less debts will make it easier to sell the club, but surely we will reach a point where the queue of rich people wanting to own a club has been drained.

I think that previously @Ghost of Cloughhas given examples of playing 'spend and save' in the P&S cycle.

As to what makes owners invest in football clubs well ask around because there's plenty of clubs not making a profit.

Not so many in administration currently. 

[Day]

Just now, RoyMac5 said:

I think that previously @Ghost of Cloughhas given examples of playing 'spend and save' in the P&S cycle.

As to what makes owners invest in football clubs well ask around because there's plenty of clubs not making a profit.

Not so many in administration currently. 

Haven’t seen the examples, will have to have a look.

I can’t ask football owners across the league, putting the question out there to us all as I can’t answer it, looks like a mugs game to me yet I’m sat here desperately wanting another mug to come along and rescue our club.

[Norman]

Do we actually lose 1 million a month or have things like depreciation etc not been factored in?

Basically, do we lose 1 million in cash? 

I'm guessing we don't. 

Edited February 3, 2022 by Norman

[RoyMac5]

9 minutes ago, David said:

Haven’t seen the examples, will have to have a look.

I can’t ask football owners across the league, putting the question out there to us all as I can’t answer it, looks like a mugs game to me yet I’m sat here desperately wanting another mug to come along and rescue our club.

Been like this for a long time I think, why have people wanted to own football clubs? Waiting for another mug, me too - Ashley would be a good hope. He at least made a profit last time. 

The whole structure needs changing somehow, it's not right that a Clubs existence should be threatened by egos and incompetence. Oh and after reading the latest EFL statement by the regulatory body's 'incompetence'.

[Day]

4 minutes ago, Norman said:

Do we actually lose 1 million a month or have things like depreciation etc not been factored in?

Basically, do we lose 1 million in cash? 

I'm guessing we don't. 

I’m basing that figure on the numbers reported that Quantuma had to show proof of funds for to see out the season. Open to be corrected though.

[Andicis]

38 minutes ago, David said:

Extra thought to add on to this would be, if we’re looking for an owner that could run the club financially stable, no losses, the door would be open to a lot more potential owners. 

However given the state the game is in, it’s hard to be sustainable in the Championship and be competitive, so I go back to where is the incentive to owning a football club of this size?

An owner(s) walks in and says, from now on we spend what we earn, if that means relegation so be it, there would be uproar and even if you wouldn’t personally be @Tyler Durden

If you disagree with that, go look when the Sheikh was first rumoured, go look at the posts where fans are complaining they don’t have the money, pfft millionaires not billionaires, why would you need a billionaire to run a sustainable football club?

I don’t believe a sustainable football club is what fans really want, I think they want a multi billionaire that will cover any losses for eternity, absolutely no threat of getting bored or running out of cash.

Genuine question - is it possible to be financially sustainable given the current climate in the Championship? How do you compete at any chance of promotion when the clubs with parachute payments come down, blow you out the water financially and then go up. And if you can't compete, how do you convince fans to keep watching? It feels like it isn't even an option on the table in this league, obviously there are levels to it, and you can be closer to sustainable, but ultimately isn't every team in this league having their debts met by their owners? 

[Day]

1 minute ago, Andicis said:

Genuine question - is it possible to be financially sustainable given the current climate in the Championship? How do you compete at any chance of promotion when the clubs with parachute payments come down, blow you out the water financially and then go up. And if you can't compete, how do you convince fans to keep watching? It feels like it isn't even an option on the table in this league, obviously there are levels to it, and you can be closer to sustainable, but ultimately isn't every team in this league having their debts met by their owners? 

It’s a great question and something I have been trying to get across whilst being accused of taking the attention away from Mel.

Every club is having their debts met by their owners, which is why I say it could be any club next, clubs are ticking time bombs, bombs of different sizes.

Apparently @Ghost of Clough has written some examples of how it’s possible to be sustainable and there is examples of clubs being promoted on a more sensible budget, sensible yet still operating on a loss, even Brentford were losing money wasn’t they?

[Andicis]

1 minute ago, David said:

It’s a great question and something I have been trying to get across whilst being accused of taking the attention away from Mel.

Every club is having their debts met by their owners, which is why I say it could be any club next, clubs are ticking time bombs, bombs of different sizes.

Apparently @Ghost of Clough has written some examples of how it’s possible to be sustainable and there is examples of clubs being promoted on a more sensible budget, sensible yet still operating on a loss, even Brentford were losing money wasn’t they?

I believe even Brentford were, yes. Seems a pretty bleak look for our league that even well run clubs can't turn over profits and the only question is one of how much of a loss you are making. It's no wonder teams are gambling on the Premier League, that's the only way to get return on your investment from an owner's perspective. Wages and transfer fees simply aren't sustainable for the revenue streams of Championship clubs, something will have to give at some point.