Hordh Posted December 2, 2021 Share Posted December 2, 2021 16 minutes ago, Curtains said: Why hopeful ! Sounds a bit like they are unsure . https://theathletic.com/news/Derby-mp-calls-for-hmrc-to-be-lenient-as-she-warns-of-disastrous-outcome/g3qNhnPf3yg6/ sounds like a buy out has gone pair shape according to Margaret Beckett. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramarena Posted December 2, 2021 Share Posted December 2, 2021 6 minutes ago, Hordh said: https://theathletic.com/news/Derby-mp-calls-for-hmrc-to-be-lenient-as-she-warns-of-disastrous-outcome/g3qNhnPf3yg6/ sounds like a buy out has gone pair shape according to Margaret Beckett. What info does Beckett have that’s talks have gone belly up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atherstoneram Posted December 2, 2021 Share Posted December 2, 2021 1 hour ago, Kathcairns said: Arn't theHMRC partly to blame for letting the club get into that much debt in the first place. The HMRC didn't let the club get into that much debt in the 1st place, PAYE etc was stull expected to be paid as and when due,all it did was suspend winding up orders until the end of September,a week or so after we went into administration,i wonder why? Perhaps there was a payment plan in place and the club reneged on it,we don't know. If that proves to be the case then they won't enter into another repayment plan. As for new owners not being liable for the outstanding debt,that is not true,the debt is against the club not the owner(s) Hordh and AndyinLiverpool 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted December 2, 2021 Share Posted December 2, 2021 10 hours ago, RAM1966 said: So not paying HMRC PAYE youve collected from your employees is ethical now is it? No wonder the country us in the state its in... Ive I fail to pay my VAT quartely and corporation tax on my business anually I get hammered by the Taxman. How come a 1/2 Billionaire gets away with it, after running the club into the ground... Morris has a lot to answer for.... Im assuming that, having your own limited company, you are fully aware of the benefits of limited liability status? If you got 'hammered' by HMRC during the pandemic then I would advise making an official complaint as they were not supposed to aggressively pursue debts. Think the advice around this changed in September of this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ram-Alf Posted December 2, 2021 Share Posted December 2, 2021 16 minutes ago, Hordh said: https://theathletic.com/news/Derby-mp-calls-for-hmrc-to-be-lenient-as-she-warns-of-disastrous-outcome/g3qNhnPf3yg6/ sounds like a buy out has gone pair shape according to Margaret Beckett. This Dame should be in a Pantomime. "Beckett, who briefly acted as Labour Party leader in 1994, was reacting to reports the club could be facing liquidation if HMRC is unwilling to decrease the debt owed by the club significantly" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hordh Posted December 2, 2021 Share Posted December 2, 2021 26 minutes ago, GenBr said: Just been reading stuart webbs book and thought this paragraph sounded familiar! We just seem to lurch from crisis to crisis in our history, but so far we've always pulled through. Hopefully its the same in this instance as well Also didn't Webb get brought in after the Mackay fringe payments and the club having a fine plus losing out a place in the Fairs Cup? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curtains Posted December 2, 2021 Share Posted December 2, 2021 (edited) Is this stuff all being put out pre HMRC talks to focus minds . How much of this HMRC debt is secured creditor status . Maybe some of the HMRC debt is at 25 percent as it is prior to the new secured creditors status rule ! The HMRC debt won’t all be new ! Edited December 2, 2021 by Curtains Altered Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abu Derby Posted December 2, 2021 Share Posted December 2, 2021 If I were Mel I wouldn’t be able to look myself in the mirror after what he has done. The destruction of the football club that he oversaw in such a short space of time is absolutely unforgivable. He will be remembered as one of the worst owners in the history of British football. r_wilcockson, Turnstile, RAM1966 and 3 others 4 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAM1966 Posted December 2, 2021 Share Posted December 2, 2021 9 hours ago, Curtains said: Liquidation is a very last resort I totally agree Most people think it won’t come to that . Maybe Mel will come to the rescue on that particular scenario Dream on the mans bust the credit cards and sailed off into the distance.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadioactiveWaste Posted December 2, 2021 Share Posted December 2, 2021 5 minutes ago, Unlucky Alf said: This Dame should be in a Pantomime. "Beckett, who briefly acted as Labour Party leader in 1994, was reacting to reports the club could be facing liquidation if HMRC is unwilling to decrease the debt owed by the club significantly" Politician sees easy win in saying "save the local football team" whilst not having any actual power with which to do so. Club survives, "it was me" club is liquidated "wouldn't have happened if my side had been in charge" Easy game this politics lark. Oldben, Mucker1884, Kathcairns and 5 others 2 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dimmu Posted December 2, 2021 Share Posted December 2, 2021 I'm not familiar with British taxation law's but I do wonder how it is possible, that the amount owed to HMRC got so ridiculous? I know that if I wouldn't pay my company's taxes when I should, it would be closed in no time. Kathcairns 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curtains Posted December 2, 2021 Share Posted December 2, 2021 4 minutes ago, RAM1966 said: Dream on the mans bust the credit cards and sailed off into the distance.... It was tongue in cheek . My latest thoughts is on how much of the HMRC debt is preferred creditors status . That could be a way out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAM1966 Posted December 2, 2021 Share Posted December 2, 2021 2 hours ago, PistoldPete said: Even debenhams carried on trading online after they were liquidated. Look up what Debenhams owners did to them, their employees, their pensioners etc... after Philip Green stripped out dividends and paid to his wife in Monaco. ANd their owner after him too, dodgy. By contrast Derby whose recent problems are mostly not of their making but due to no fans being allowed in the ground and some still staying away due to COVID, would be banished by EFL to the lower leagues. ANd people here talking about the morality of someone who never took any dividends .. spent too much on player wages (which means he paid too much to HMRC too by the way). And even if he is immoral why punish the club the fans, the creditors and even HMRc itself. Would be mad, beyond mad. Some good points but companies that go bust and continue to trade generally change there name and registration and VAT numbers at companies house. Guess what that means we are no longer members of the EFL.... That means auromatic expulsion and down to the bottom of the Non League wood pile.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atherstoneram Posted December 2, 2021 Share Posted December 2, 2021 2 hours ago, Unlucky Alf said: Maybe Rishi Sunak is not aware but i'll guarantee there will be a Senior HMRC advisor aware or even at the table with Admin, Football is seen as an anathema to HMRC where time after time they put in winding up orders of football clubs only for a judge to throw it out. I'm confident we'll be sold, HMRC will accept a deal, And DCFC will move on...albeit in League 1. Judges did indeed used to throw winding up orders out or to put it correctly didn't find in HMRC's favour, however now that new laws have been introduced that means HMRC have moved up the pecking order they will have a bigger say in what happens. We are the First club to go into administration since the new laws came in,do you really think they are going to roll over? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAM1966 Posted December 2, 2021 Share Posted December 2, 2021 (edited) 27 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: Im assuming that, having your own limited company, you are fully aware of the benefits of limited liability status? If you got 'hammered' by HMRC during the pandemic then I would advise making an official complaint as they were not supposed to aggressively pursue debts. Think the advice around this changed in September of this year. Yes but my Limited Company is not also a community asset, that means something and the man in my view will never be forgiven if he stands back and watches the club go pop while he still owns a £80M asset. This has been a very clever exit strategy by Morris and one that the loop needs to be closed upon... Edited December 2, 2021 by RAM1966 Gritstone Tup 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAM1966 Posted December 2, 2021 Share Posted December 2, 2021 8 hours ago, Sidd10 said: How is Mel Morris not under some sort of criminal investigation for this? What an utter disgrace. I think the fans should press for there to be a full investigation on how such mismanagement of a football club can be allowed to happen and go unpunished.... Gritstone Tup 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jono Posted December 2, 2021 Share Posted December 2, 2021 8 hours ago, GadFly said: Forgive my possible stupidity, but perhaps somebody can enlighten me... If we owe 30 odd million in unpaid monies to HMRC... why should they write that money off/reduce the debt? I'm looking for answers that don't resort to whataboutery please. I'm not interested in "well Amazon/Starbucks/whoever don't pay their taxes so why should we?" or anything like that (I mean, for starters, two wrongs don't make a right...). What I want to know is - from the perspective of a non-Rams-supporting everyday taxpayer, why should their tax money be used to prop up a football club that they have no association with, and couldn't care less if it went out of existence? Wouldn't that money be better spent on education or healthcare? Why should any of us continue to play fair and pay our fair share, if DCFC won't/don't? Surely if you're going to advocate and hope for DCFC to have their unpaid taxes ignored, then you cannot ever take a moral position against any other corporation not paying their taxes, ever again? If I've got this completely wrapped around my neck then I do apologise, but I'd also like to understand the situation a little better so please don't go too hard on me if I'm just being dumb - enlighten me instead! ? You make some great moral points but comparing a failed business to one engaging in tax avoidance isn’t really relevant. Tax payers money isn’t being used to prop up a football club - it doesn’t need propping up .. it’s already collapsed. What we are dealing with now is the collateral damage. I want HMRC to get as much money as they can and I also want DCFC to survive as an entity. As to the TAX .. in the end it is money that pays for schools, roads and a health service. The issue is, there isn’t as much money available as is owed. So .. back to what the Admins have been saying… they are in discussions with the HMRC and will present to them whatever prospective new owners offer. It’s mind numbingly simple for the HMRC There isn’t enough money in any circumstances .. so HMRC have 2 choices 1) Liquidate club and get their share from remaining assets which includes some player transfer fees which will add up to X pounds 2) Accept offer from new owners which adds up to X pounds - plus or minus .. HMRC have to figure out if there is a plus. If there is then they will accept. If there isn’t or the process looks to extended then they won’t. We should continue to pay our fair share .. DCFC can’t because the tank is empty. You can fine a homeless person a million quid but you won’t get it. Make me a cup of tea in this chocolate tea pot. Just won’t happen. It’s the principal of limited liability, without which not much happens. Even in a state system it goes wrong because states collapse via inflation and valueless currency when the world at large realises promises can’t be met Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ram-Alf Posted December 2, 2021 Share Posted December 2, 2021 4 minutes ago, atherstoneram said: Judges did indeed used to throw winding up orders out or to put it correctly didn't find in HMRC's favour, however now that new laws have been introduced that means HMRC have moved up the pecking order they will have a bigger say in what happens. We are the First club to go into administration since the new laws came in,do you really think they are going to roll over? I'm not blessed with hindsight, Arrogance maybe ?, Do I think they are "going to roll over" and have their bellys tickled...No!, I think they'll use a little common sense...tho that may be in short supply where HMRC are concerned. Someone at HMRC may deem it neccesary to have a scalp around their belt, And have a fairly large club go BANG!...I just don't see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruud Aralliss Posted December 2, 2021 Share Posted December 2, 2021 Is there any truth in Appleby asking the EFL how much it would cost to set up a club from scratch? A strange and worrying question to ask if it is true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PistoldPete Posted December 2, 2021 Share Posted December 2, 2021 31 minutes ago, atherstoneram said: The HMRC didn't let the club get into that much debt in the 1st place, PAYE etc was stull expected to be paid as and when due,all it did was suspend winding up orders until the end of September,a week or so after we went into administration,i wonder why? Perhaps there was a payment plan in place and the club reneged on it,we don't know. If that proves to be the case then they won't enter into another repayment plan. As for new owners not being liable for the outstanding debt,that is not true,the debt is against the club not the owner(s) Well the Government not only let the club get into that much debt but actually created the debt in the first place by closing the stadium to fans. There are no new owners. They wlll only become liable for debts if they agree to take them on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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