Derby finally accept 21 point deduction.

[PistoldPete]

33 minutes ago, FlyBritishMidland said:

An excellent post, particularly the bit in bold.  Like it or not, we (or Mel) put ourselves in this position.  If we were whiter than white it wouldn’t have come to this.

I thought the post was wrong in almost every single sentence, which takes some doing As I've said , lost revenue is not just one year, and is not just gate receipts but all the other events and activity. Our revenue was £30 million before COVID.  SO its mathematically incorrect as well as wrong on many other facts.

And funny how its OK for EFL to appeal ( but actually not OK for them to make false claims late in the process when they tried to get us relegated) , and not OK for Derby to appeal against the admin deduction? 

But yes the important thing is to find a new buyer.. and the only reason to accept any penalty is if that closes off the deal by bringing closure to EFL's witch hunt. 

   

[PistoldPete]

58 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

 

Why would an IDC not agree with an agreed decision? 

[kevinhectoring]

3 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

Why would an IDC not agree with an agreed decision? 

If it bears no relationship to precedent, for example 

[PistoldPete]

1 hour ago, Oldben said:

 

My view is that Kirchner is saying that even if the club is relegated, he is willing to invest in the club.

Maguire has stated that it is probably very difficult for Derby to find a new owner if they are guaranteed relegation, as the club will be worth less if its a league one club instead of in the championship.

From everything I have read Kirchner appears to be an astute businessman who sees that its possible to turn Derby around and turn it into a great team again.

Its my believe that if your rich enough to buy Derby even if they are relegated, your not looking to see them stay in League one but will want to promote them as soon as possible and under those circumstances, you would be willing to pay whatever it takes to guarantee promotion from League One to the Championship.

I had concerns that if Derby were relegated know one would be interested in buying the club.

League one no longer has a salary cap, but the issue is which players from the Championship would be willing to transfer to a relegated club and so you would need to pay good money to buy the best possible players from league one.

I think Derby if they are owned by a wealthy owner could out bid the majority of other teams in League one, and an entire rebuild would be required to make them strong enough to be promoted in one season.

You would have to assume the admin team would not be accepting any significant points deduction unless they were sure the buyers were OK with it.   

[Ghost of Clough]

11 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

Why would an IDC not agree with an agreed decision? 

If they felt one party was being 'held at gun point' to agree to the deal?

[duncanjwitham]

Just now, Ghost of Clough said:

If they felt one party was being 'held at gun point' to agree to the deal?

I’d assume the point of ratification is to avoid any potential accusations of collusion/impropriety etc - e.g. if Derby still had a member on the EFL board and they agreed a decision with us etc etc. I suspect it’s very unlikely there would be any issues with a decision in our case.

[The Baron]

1 hour ago, Tamworthram said:

Well that’s clearly nonsense from Maguire unless you’re misquoting him.

A 21 point deduction would make avoiding relegation extremely difficult but going down wouldn’t be guaranteed. Also, surely no club is worthless. It’s just the realistic price for league 1 team will be considerably less than a championship club.

They’re misquoting me. I said the same as you.

[vonwright]

24 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

Our revenue was £30 million before COVID.  SO its mathematically incorrect as well as wrong on many other facts.

And funny how its OK for EFL to appeal ( but actually not OK for them to make false claims late in the process when they tried to get us relegated) , and not OK for Derby to appeal against the admin deduction? 

But yes the important thing is to find a new buyer.. and the only reason to accept any penalty is if that closes off the deal by bringing closure to EFL's witch hunt. 

   

You're going to need to show some working. Our matchday income in 2017/18 was £9.1m. Our total revenue, including eg broadcast rights, was £29m. (In passing, our wages were £47m.) I'd like to know how exactly we get to £20m lost through COVID but even if we do, it's a fraction of the money we've lost or the debts we've accumulated. It's a factor obviously but it's absolutely not the sole cause of our problems.

It's absolutely fine for us to appeal the administration penalty! I'd love us to appeal and win. The club however has agreed an adjournment. Are we claiming they are doing this despite having an ironclad case? Sacrificing 12 points to bring forward an additional penalty of nine? It makes no sense. They know they are not going to win that appeal. 

You've convinced yourself we would win the administration appeal and you're now constructing a huge conspiracy theory around it. There's a much simpler explanation. The administrators know they were unlikely to win, that the finances are a mess, and that if they can leverage their minimal 'threat' of legal action to at least close off the threat of multiple points deductions when our accounts are calculated like every other club, then so be it.

If this was any other club, all this would be obvious. Since it's our club, it's painful. But it's true all the same. 

[hintonsboots]

10 minutes ago, The Baron said:

They’re misquoting me. I said the same as you.

@The Baron

Evening mate, can you offer the Forum any updates on where we stand as of  tonight ??

[Jimbo Ram]

3 hours ago, Foreveram said:

I’ve told you once

No you haven’t…..

[Ghost of Clough]

7 minutes ago, vonwright said:

You're going to need to show some working. Our matchday income in 2017/18 was £9.1m. Our total revenue, including eg broadcast rights, was £29m. (In passing, our wages were £47m.) I'd like to know how exactly we get to £20m lost through COVID but even if we do, it's a fraction of the money we've lost or the debts we've accumulated. It's a factor obviously but it's absolutely not the sole cause of our problems.

It's absolutely fine for us to appeal the administration penalty! I'd love us to appeal and win. The club however has agreed an adjournment. Are we claiming they are doing this despite having an ironclad case? Sacrificing 12 points to bring forward an additional penalty of nine? It makes no sense. They know they are not going to win that appeal. 

You've convinced yourself we would win the administration appeal and you're now constructing a huge conspiracy theory around it. There's a much simpler explanation. The administrators know they were unlikely to win, that the finances are a mess, and that if they can leverage their minimal 'threat' of legal action to at least close off the threat of multiple points deductions when our accounts are calculated like every other club, then so be it.

If this was any other club, all this would be obvious. Since it's our club, it's painful. But it's true all the same. 

£9m match day and £7m commercial/hospitality per annum. Plus other little bits such as programmes, merchandise, etc. Let's estimate total per annum at £16.5m

9 games also without fans in 19/20 (one fifth of a season). £16.5m + 20% =£19.8m

Next.

[The Baron]

7 minutes ago, hintonsboots said:

@The Baron

Evening mate, can you offer the Forum any updates on where we stand as of  tonight ??

Nothing has been finalised but the administrators will take legal advice as to the likelihood of success in the appeal. The cost of appeal is £300-400k and additional income in the Championship is £8-10m. 
 

Buyers want certainty as much as possible in terms of two things: (a) the assets being acquired and (b) cash flows from operations. The less certainty the lower the price they would be willing to pay, as you said yourself. 
 

My understanding was that the decision to defer the appeal was to try to get a ‘global settlement’ on the points deductions and that negotiations were continuing. Doesn’t help those worrying about their employment prospects at the club or the fans though. 

[PistoldPete]

4 minutes ago, vonwright said:

You're going to need to show some working. Our matchday income in 2017/18 was £9.1m. Our total revenue, including eg broadcast rights, was £29m. (In passing, our wages were £47m.) I'd like to know how exactly we get to £20m lost through COVID but even if we do, it's a fraction of the money we've lost or the debts we've accumulated. It's a factor obviously but it's absolutely not the sole cause of our problems.

It's absolutely fine for us to appeal the administration penalty! I'd love us to appeal and win. The club however has agreed an adjournment. Are we claiming they are doing this despite having an ironclad case? Sacrificing 12 points to bring forward an additional penalty of nine? It makes no sense. They know they are not going to win that appeal. 

You've convinced yourself we would win the administration appeal and you're now constructing a huge conspiracy theory around it. There's a much simpler explanation. The administrators know they were unlikely to win, that the finances are a mess, and that if they can leverage their minimal 'threat' of legal action to at least close off the threat of multiple points deductions when our accounts are calculated like every other club, then so be it.

If this was any other club, all this would be obvious. Since it's our club, it's painful. But it's true all the same. 

So according to you we had in 2017-18 £29 million revenue and I think it was higher in 2018-19 the last full year before COVID. Morris  said revenue dropped to little over £10m, mostly TV money. We lost revenue for a full 18 months , including bars and restaurants events etc for most of that 18 months. Not sure why you would query the lost revenue figure of £20 million.

 

I haven't convinced myself we would win the admin appeal nor have I suggested any conspiarcy about it. I don't know what the result would be. We may never know. If we pull out ouf the appeal it will be because the admin are trying to agree an overall settlement with EFL for everything, and rather take all the pain all at once rather than drag it on into the New year or even into next season. .that would only make sense if they have a buyer ready and willing to tak eover poretty much straight away. As i say we are agreed on that , it is the main thing, we need new owners and quickly. 

 

 

[PistoldPete]

7 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

£9m match day and £7m commercial/hospitality per annum. Plus other little bits such as programmes, merchandise, etc. Let's estimate total per annum at £16.5m

9 games also without fans in 19/20 (one fifth of a season). £16.5m + 20% =£19.8m

Next.

You said it much more succintly. But like I keep saying thats only up to August 2021, it's still ongoing with vulnerable fans staying away. And what about player valuations, lost opportunity to sell the club.  

[Chester40]

5 minutes ago, The Baron said:

Nothing has been finalised but the administrators will take legal advice as to the likelihood of success in the appeal. The cost of appeal is £300-400k and additional income in the Championship is £8-10m. 
 

Buyers want certainty as much as possible in terms of two things: (a) the assets being acquired and (b) cash flows from operations. The less certainty the lower the price they would be willing to pay, as you said yourself. 
 

My understanding was that the decision to defer the appeal was to try to get a ‘global settlement’ on the points deductions and that negotiations were continuing. Doesn’t help those worrying about their employment prospects at the club or the fans though. 

Any idea where the notion that the -9 points deduction has been settled is leaking from...or is it all mere speculation?

[PistoldPete]

6 minutes ago, Chester40 said:

Any idea where the notion that the -9 points deduction has been settled is leaking from...or is it all mere speculation?

Don't know what Mr Maguire  thinks , but my take on is that both sides are leaking to their preferred outlets in the media. Percy seeems to be getting stuff from the EFL. Nixon more from Derby. If both agree we can assume there is some settlement in the offing. 

[PistoldPete]

17 minutes ago, The Baron said:

Nothing has been finalised but the administrators will take legal advice as to the likelihood of success in the appeal. The cost of appeal is £300-400k and additional income in the Championship is £8-10m. 
 

Buyers want certainty as much as possible in terms of two things: (a) the assets being acquired and (b) cash flows from operations. The less certainty the lower the price they would be willing to pay, as you said yourself. 
 

My understanding was that the decision to defer the appeal was to try to get a ‘global settlement’ on the points deductions and that negotiations were continuing. Doesn’t help those worrying about their employment prospects at the club or the fans though. 

Agree with this. No idea about legal costs but never cheap.

[Reggie Greenwood]

4 hours ago, Tyler Durden said:

Taking the observation back one step why did we have to sell our ground at all?

The same reason Gibbo sold the debts 

[The Baron]

4 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

Don't know what Mr Maguire  thinks , but my take on is that both sides are leaking to their preferred outlets in the media. Percy seeems to be getting stuff from the EFL. Nixon more from Derby. If both agree we can assume there is some settlement in the offing. 

Suspect you are right PP.

[The Baron]

3 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

Agree with this. No idea about legal costs but never cheap.

Wigan’s appeal costs were £300k according to the administrator report. They also took separate advice which bumped up the costs a bit further, and their appeal justification. was flimsier than that of Derby (IMO).