New Vote: Is Rooney the man to take us forward? 29/12/20

[Tyler Durden]

10 minutes ago, YouRams said:

With the players at his disposal I don’t think another manager could do much more than he’s done, we were in a proper rut that’s been massively improved, fine margins in a couple of the losses that could’ve easily been wins.

I saw this comment oft quoted when Cocu was in charge and really it's a banal argument as it's impossible to prove either way without having a Sliding Doors scenario. 

I do know that another manager would be hard pressed to do worse than Cocu did before his exit. 

[IslandExile]

11 minutes ago, Nuwtfly said:

I could probably list a dozen or so managers that I personally think would do a better job than Wayne Rooney, but honestly, what's the point? As many posters have said before, any managerial appointment is a gamble. My opinion will be different to yours, to @RoyMac5, to Mel Morris, etc etc.

At the end of the day though, it's not my job to pick the right manager. It's the owners. All I can do as a fan is assess his choices, and so far, the novice he has put in charge of a team fighting for survival has failed to beat any of the teams around them, picking up three wins from ten games, two of which coming against sides (Birmingham and Millwall) who put in performances almost as bad as the one we put in against Blackburn Rovers.

If this is a what constitutes a revolution then I need to go back to University. 

I don't know where the word "revolution" came from - I didn't use it (knowingly). As you say, there's a risk with any manager, all I'm saying is Rooney is at least as likely to be successful as anyone else that I imagine may be available.

So, anyway, you cannot name a manager you'd prefer.

Easy to criticise, not so easy to be constructive or to put your head above the parapet, eh? 

[Nuwtfly]

7 minutes ago, IslandExile said:

I don't know where the word "revolution" came from - I didn't use it (knowingly). As you say, there's a risk with any manager, all I'm saying is Rooney is at least as likely to be successful as anyone else that I imagine may be available.

So, anyway, you cannot name a manager you'd prefer.

Easy to criticise, not so easy to be constructive or to put your head above the parapet, eh? 

I can name a dozen, and have mentioned plenty of names over the last few months, plenty of which you have even given likes, laughs or little rams. 

But I don't fancy spending my time repeating myself and drawing up little lists just because you want me to. 

And as for sticking heads above parapets: I have stuck by my guns on this issue and now find myself arguing with what feels like almost every member of this forum on the Rooney debate, of which I am getting plenty of criticism. So please don't patronise me with what is an isn't easy on this forum.

[IslandExile]

4 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

You asked the same question when Cocu was here, and Rooney himself quickly dispelled the idea of the players being the problem.

So if Rooney, a complete rookie, has coaxed an improvement from this group, why would a manager with good pedigree and knowledge of EFL football be incapable of taking it further?

If you are happy with the direction we are going in, fair enough. Three wins and four draws from nine is respectable, but personally I feel if we are going to steer clear of trouble, we will need something more.

I think there are numerous managers - Cook, Cooper, Jones, Howe, Jokanovic for example - that would be better positioned not only to get us out of trouble but to take us forward beyond May.

But the way things are going, we have to hope Rooney learns quickly and preserves our status in this division, but personally it’s not something I’d bet on.

There's a difference between the "players being a problem" and the "composition of the squad being an issue".

I'd argue the players are giving everything. We're just not scoring enough goals and I think that is an issue with the lack of an effective goalscorer in the squad.

There's only so much than any manager can do with any given squad. The same is true of ours, as it is West Brom's, Sheffield United's....

[YouRams]

4 minutes ago, Nuwtfly said:

Why? I keep seeing this and I don't understand what the evidence behind this is.

 

We've gone from being in the relegation zone, to being in the relegation zone. I don't think that's a massive improvement, personally!

 

I get the feeling we might end up cursing fine margins and referees all the way to League One at this rate.

I see what you're saying, and I don't mean to come across as negative as I probably am doing. I'm just really frustrated by the current situation and am struggling to understand some of the spin. 

We don’t have a consistent goal scorer and currently I’d say we have just one consistent winger in Jozwiak. We’d need a Lawrence/Ibe to support more and maybe you’d see more goals from CKR with better supply but Lawrence has been inconsistent for another season. I don’t see what any manager could change what we currently have, maybe that’s a blinkered opinion.

The defence looks a lot more solid, midfield positioning is much improved, work rate off the ball is the best we’ve seen in a long time, so a lot has improved if not our league position which would if we had some more quality/consistency up top. 
 

[Highgate]

1 minute ago, YouRams said:

With the players at his disposal I don’t think another manager could do much more than he’s done, we were in a proper rut that’s been massively improved, fine margins in a couple of the losses that could’ve easily been wins.

Bielik, Jozwiak, Knight, Clarke, Fozzy, Marshall, Wisdom, Buchanan, Byrne are all better than or decent Championship players in my opinion. Sibley and Bird are obviously in that category too when on form.  CKR seems well capable of doing a job at this level as Davies when fit. Shinnie and even Waghorn (when he is not having a brain freeze) are generally playing at championship standard. The lack of a natural goal scorer is a huge handicap, but there is no reason why this squad of players should be in the bottom 3. They are genuinely better than that in my opinion.  Bielik's return to fitness alone has been a massive boost.  That's not to say they are too good to go down but any competent manager should be able to get this squad to safety.  So far Rooney has appeared competent (which has surprised me), and I'd have no hesitation in giving him the rest of the season at this point.  But it's early days and far too early to say whether he is a viable long term option or not.  

[Comrade 86]

1 hour ago, RoyMac5 said:

Cos he set us up to play in a dogpoo manner. We were never going anywhere in the Championship other than down under Cocu.

Edit: A bit like with Clarke, Cocu didn't understand the rhythm of the Championship! ? 

Errr well that's not strictly true, is it? He got us into 7th or 8th at one point last season and that without Jozwiak, Bielik and CKR. Them's the FACTS matey! 

I'm OK with Wazza being in situ but let's resist the urge to make stupid poo up, shall we?

[YouRams]

11 minutes ago, Highgate said:

Bielik, Jozwiak, Knight, Clarke, Fozzy, Marshall, Wisdom, Buchanan, Byrne are all better than or decent Championship players in my opinion. Sibley and Bird are obviously in that category too when on form.  CKR seems well capable of doing a job at this level as Davies when fit. Shinnie and even Waghorn (when he is not having a brain freeze) are generally playing at championship standard. The lack of a natural goal scorer is a huge handicap, but there is no reason why this squad of players should be in the bottom 3. They are genuinely better than that in my opinion.  Bielik's return to fitness alone has been a massive boost.  That's not to say they are too good to go down but any competent manager should be able to get this squad to safety.  So far Rooney has appeared competent (which has surprised me), and I'd have no hesitation in giving him the rest of the season at this point.  But it's early days and far too early to say whether he is a viable long term option or not.  

I agree we should be nowhere near where we are and the players you named are more than capable of doing well in this league and Rooney is bringing the quality out of all those named, as I’ve said on other posts it’s the lack of consistency and quality in the final 3rd thats costing us at the minute. 

[Jourdan]

25 minutes ago, IslandExile said:

There's a difference between the "players being a problem" and the "composition of the squad being an issue".

I'd argue the players are giving everything. We're just not scoring enough goals and I think that is an issue with the lack of an effective goalscorer in the squad.

There's only so much than any manager can do with any given squad. The same is true of ours, as it is West Brom's, Sheffield United's....

This is the Championship. Good managers take limited squads a long way all of the time.

Look at Barnsley in 9th. Huddersfield and Luton comfortably in 13th and 14th.

There is no point putting a ceiling on a group of players at this level.

Do you really believe that 3 points out of a possible 15 and two goals scored against Wycombe, Coventry, Preston, Sheff Wed and Stoke is reflective of everything this group of players is capable of?

[RoyMac5]

1 minute ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

Errr well that's not strictly true, is it? He got us into 7th or 8th at one point last season and that without Jozwiak, Bielik and CKR. Them's the FACTS matey! 

And we ended up where? Them's also facts matey. He was going nowhere fast but down. Occasionally he stumbled on a team that played okay and then he'd change it. #tinker #tinker ?

[RoyMac5]

Just now, Jourdan said:

Look at Barnsley in 9th. Huddersfield and Luton comfortably in 13th and 14th...

Do you really believe that 3 points out of a possible 15 from games and two goals scored against Wycombe, Coventry, Preston, Sheff Wed and Stoke is reflective of everything this group of players is capable of?

When they start the season where Rooney started as manager then it's a different proposition. Perhaps the Wendies show what can be done starting with a deficit, but then they sacked their manager.

[RoyMac5]

6 minutes ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

I'm OK with Wazza being in situ but let's resist the urge to make stupid poo up, shall we?

I was making nothing up - we continued with Cocu after getting to 'heady heights' and we sank - them's the facts. #dire

 

[IslandExile]

3 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

This is the Championship. Good managers take limited squads a long way all of the time.

Look at Barnsley in 9th. Huddersfield and Luton comfortably in 13th and 14th.

There is no point putting a ceiling on a group of players at this level.

Do you really believe that 3 points out of a possible 15 and two goals scored against Wycombe, Coventry, Preston, Sheff Wed and Stoke is reflective of everything this group of players is capable of?

No but nor do I think that a new manager, including any of those that you mentioned, could walk in and see an immediate improvement.

Look at the calls on here for Hughton, Allardyce (maybe not so much Pullis ?) but their impact has hardly been instantaneous either.

There have been reasons for dropped points in the games you mentioned, perhaps down to Rooney in the earlier ones but beyond his control in the later ones.

As I have said in various posts, I did think Cocu was the right appointment. I still think if circumstances had been different, it could have worked. In the end, he had to go.

Much of the recent improvement is because of Bielik and Kazim-Richards reaching full fitness. Nevertheless, I think Rooney is responsible for a more pragmatic, positive approach. The defense is much tighter - statistically - and the effort and team spirit appears greater than under Cocu.

I honestly do not know if any other - available - manager could bring about a bigger change in the time that Rooney has had so far. If you think otherwise, we will have to respectfully disagree.

I do think the squad has weak points at the moment. Cocu began the rebuild but it is far from complete. We need investment. We need a goalscorer.

[Jourdan]

10 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

I was making nothing up - we continued with Cocu after getting to 'heady heights' and we sank - them's the facts. #dire

 

What makes you so confident we won’t sink under Rooney?

Two defeats from three in games we would have been hoping to win.

It wouldn’t take much for things to trend downwards yet again.

I hope you are right about Rooney and he guides us to safety.

But I don’t think the evidence is there yet.

[Comrade 86]

25 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

And we ended up where? Them's also facts matey. He was going nowhere fast but down. Occasionally he stumbled on a team that played okay and then he'd change it. #tinker #tinker ?

Not what you said though is it? Like I said, stop making up poo. You don't get relegated for finishing 10th. That's a fact too. 

[Leicester Ram]

Undoubtedly part of why we’re better now is because Rooney himself isn’t plodding around the centre circle, but some are ignoring serious improvements to the team under Rooney and an upturn in results.

There is a process to taking a team from relegation fodder to safety which Rooney’s nailed in my eyes. He first made us solid, then stopped us conceding and then got us creating chances again. He’s built up their confidence and made them honest again.

Simply put, the amount of points per game we’re averaging since Rooney took over sole control of the team (1.4) would have us clear of the 50 point mark, so therefore you’d think we’d stay up. And that’s ignoring that the ppg average will likely increase as the team appears to be gradually improving, particular when you consider how few shots let alone goals we are conceding.

After approximately 35 minutes against Wednesday we had something like 62% possession and 9 shots to their 38% possession and 2 shots. That’s absolute domination! We were unlucky not to get a goal in that period and if we repeat performances like that we will put teams away consistently, just as we did at Birmingham.

What I think is brilliant is how hard the team is working and the way we press. There’s been a lot said at this club about a “pathway to the first team” for the academy graduates. What Rooney’s approach to the team has been early on is what gets me excited about him in the future. He’s picked hard workers consistently and I love his message that if someone trains well enough, they’ll be in the squad no matter who they are.

What’s simpler for our graduates than knowing that if they work as hard as Shinnie or Knight then they’ll have a shot at the playing first team football? Attitude is absolutely essential with Rooney, it’s the foundation for success and if we arm the players that already have talent with it then we’ll be laughing.

I expect results will continue to improve, we’ve been robbed of some points recently and I think his record should be better than it is now. How can you seriously count the losses to Preston and Wednesday as marks against Rooney? Are you really being honest with yourselves? Such a cheap argument.

Switching manager again would be disastrous, particularly in January and this squad are clearly now Rooney’s. He’s the manager and they’re playing well for him. He’s our best shot now and I think we’ll finish between 13th and 19th.

[RoyMac5]

8 minutes ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

Not what you said though is it? Like I said, stop making up poo. You don't get relegated for finishing 10th. That's a fact too. 

What I said: "Cos he set us up to play in a dogpoo manner. We were never going anywhere in the Championship other than down under Cocu." You countered with a well we were 7th-ish or some such, then 10th - so we must have been good. However this fails to take into account we then kept dropping down the table, to prop it up - hence 'we were never going anywhere...other than down'. You chose to ignore our position when Cocu was removed. I took into account a bit of average play that petered out when challenged by the 'big boys' at the top of the table. We were not going anywhere with Cocu, other than relegation. 

 

 

[Comrade 86]

3 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

What I said: "Cos he set us up to play in a dogpoo manner. We were never going anywhere in the Championship other than down under Cocu." You countered with a well we were 7th-ish or some such, then 10th - so we must have been good. However this fails to take into account we then kept dropping down the table, to prop it up - hence 'we were never going anywhere...other than down'. You chose to ignore our position when Cocu was removed. I took into account a bit of average play that petered out when challenged by the 'big boys' at the top of the table. We were not going anywhere with Cocu, other than relegation. 

Yeah, ok mate but in case you've not noticed, Cocu's no longer in charge. The not so subtle message is change the feckin record. Your man's in the hot seat now and the thread is about whether or not he's the guy to take us forward not where we'd have ended up under Cocu. Comparing apples and pears is pretty pointless at the best of times. For the little it's worth, and addressing the actual subject matter, I don't think we're doing too badly under Rooney and I suspect this thread would have a different tone if we'd converted chances yesterday.

[Jimbo Ram]

19 minutes ago, Leicester Ram said:

Undoubtedly part of why we’re better now is because Rooney himself isn’t plodding around the centre circle, but some are ignoring serious improvements to the team under Rooney and an upturn in results.

There is a process to taking a team from relegation fodder to safety which Rooney’s nailed in my eyes. He first made us solid, then stopped us conceding and then got us creating chances again. He’s built up their confidence and made them honest again.

Simply put, the amount of points per game we’re averaging since Rooney took over sole control of the team (1.4) would have us clear of the 50 point mark, so therefore you’d think we’d stay up. And that’s ignoring that the ppg average will likely increase as the team appears to be gradually improving, particular when you consider how few shots let alone goals we are conceding.

After approximately 35 minutes against Wednesday we had something like 62% possession and 9 shots to their 38% possession and 2 shots. That’s absolute domination! We were unlucky not to get a goal in that period and if we repeat performances like that we will put teams away consistently, just as we did at Birmingham.

What I think is brilliant is how hard the team is working and the way we press. There’s been a lot said at this club about a “pathway to the first team” for the academy graduates. What Rooney’s approach to the team has been early on is what gets me excited about him in the future. He’s picked hard workers consistently and I love his message that if someone trains well enough, they’ll be in the squad no matter who they are.

What’s simpler for our graduates than knowing that if they work as hard as Shinnie or Knight then they’ll have a shot at the playing first team football? Attitude is absolutely essential with Rooney, it’s the foundation for success and if we arm the players that already have talent with it then we’ll be laughing.

I expect results will continue to improve, we’ve been robbed of some points recently and I think his record should be better than it is now. How can you seriously count the losses to Preston and Wednesday as marks against Rooney? Are you really being honest with yourselves? Such a cheap argument.

Switching manager again would be disastrous, particularly in January and this squad are clearly now Rooney’s. He’s the manager and they’re playing well for him. He’s our best shot now and I think we’ll finish between 13th and 19th.

I couldn’t put it any better ?

[RoyMac5]

12 minutes ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

Yeah, ok mate but in case you've not noticed, Cocu's no longer in charge. The not so subtle message is change the feckin record.

Who should we compare how Rooney is currently doing against then? 'Change the feckin' record' is the cry of Cocu's last few disciples who still haven't quite managed to take off their blinkers. ?