Derby County v Barnsley: Matchday Thread

[Marriot Ram99]

duck having Mclaren again, if Cocu goes I wouldn't want either him or Wassal would probably give it to Cook. Or another manager with experience in lower league rough and tumble football which helps in a relegation battle and if we do go down we need someone who could do a good job in league 1.

[brady1993]

29 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Whether we play 343 or 433 (or variants of) we struggle to have any control of games, eventually leading to a dropoff in energy levels or a lapse of concentration resulting in goals conceded. With a Knight and Shinnie midfield, we've added the energy we were previously missing, but we're have absolutely no control of the game - we need Bird, Rooney or Bielik in there. Bielik isn't fit enough yet and Rooney is a wasted player when out of possession. Bird comes in. With Bird back in the team, Knight and Shinnie retaining their spots due to being two of our better players this season, a switch to a 433 variant is a must. Get Knight and Shinnie pressing high.
With a back 4 our full backs need to be good in the air meaning Byrne is dropped for this one with Wisdom stepping in. To aid with getting a clean sheet, Davies retains his spot. Whereas Buchanan comes back in as he's a better fit that Fozzy.
Jozwiak and Lawrence pick themselves at the moment, with the main competition being Sibley and Whittaker. CF is between Rooney and Waggy, the former having the better game last night so keeps his place.

Marshall
Wisdom   Davies   Clarke   Buchanan
Knight   Bird   Shinnie
Jozwiak   Rooney   Lawrence

Subs: Roos, te Wierik, Fozzy, Holmes, Sibley, Whittaker, Waghorn

 

 

What we'll actually see...

Marshall
Byrne   te Wierik   Davies   Clarke   Buchanan
Knight   Shinnie
Jozwiak   Rooney   Lawrence

Subs: Roos, Wisdom, Fozzy, Holmes, Sibley, Waghorn, Kazim

I largely agree with your assessment and what you think but disagree to varying degrees with a couple selection. Before I say may reasons I'll say I'm coming from the position of thinking we need to gamble, be forward thinking, aggressive and attacking with players who are comfortable in possession. I just can't help we need to take the shackles off and try to impose our game. A draw is no good, only a win and a convincing one at that would keep Cocu his place.

1) Rooney over Waghorn. This is the bit I most strongly disagree on, Rooney may have a had a couple decent shots but he cause a myriad of tactical issues last night and would again played up front. He can't effectively challenge aerially and he can't threaten in behind severly limiting our options to go long. He hasn't got the energy to press effectively making a high press harder to maintain. He lacks the mobility to be a part of an interchanging front three. Our most dangerous looking front three has been Lawrence, Waghorn, Jozwiak and we should return to that.

2) Davies. I understand completely the logic here, it's obvious. However his complete lack of pace along side Clarke (who's not the quickest) means a high line is dangerous and therefore limits the ability to really press an opponent. That combined with a bit of sluggishness and clumsiness on the ball also makes it more difficult to control the game. It's possible this will be somewhat mitigated with Wisdom at RB (as he won't get pulled into that channel as much) but personally I'd be considering either Te Wierik or Wisdom here to get more ability on the ball and pace in the back line.

3) Wisdom. As alluded to above I'd be thinking about at centre back. I'd also be thinking of putting Byrne at right back so that we can more easily stretch Barnsely, keep width and be more attacking.

4) Shinnie. I've shared my thoughts on a few occassions about him now. Pushed forward leading the press with Bird behind could solve some of the issues with him though. Frees him to doing all the leg work and not have to worry about starting the play. Also like you said he does deserve his place. Personally though I'd be bringing in Sibley to be more attacking without losing a lot of the energy.

Marshall

Byrne Te Wierik* Clarke Buchanan

Bird

Knight   Sibley

Jozwiak  Waghorn  Lawrence

Subs: Roos, Wisdom*, Holmes, Shinnie, Whittaker, Rooney, Kazim

 

[Van der MoodHoover]

4 minutes ago, Marriott Ram99 said:

duck having Mclaren again, if Cocu goes I wouldn't want either him or Wassal would probably give it to Cook. Or another manager with experience in lower league rough and tumble football which helps in a relegation battle and if we do go down we need someone who could do a good job in league 1.

That sounds like Cook then doesn't it? but he's never been as high as the upper reaches of the championship has he, which is presumably the level of ambition folk are expecting us to show?

[Marriot Ram99]

4 minutes ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

That sounds like Cook then doesn't it? but he's never been as high as the upper reaches of the championship has he, which is presumably the level of ambition folk are expecting us to show?

We don't need to show delusion of grandeur, because of our situation we very much need a pragmatic manager in my eyes, the players are playing so badly that it would seem a very tough ask to get us playing great football this season. 

[England Ram]

The problem I have is with so many players under performing or looking like they don't give one.

 

For me-

                      Marshal

Bryne   TwWerk Clarke  Buchanan

           Shinie          Knight

                     Sibley

Joswiak       Waghorn     Morgan Whitiker     

 

I'd even think about dropping Waghorn if we have another forward to can control a football and pass it to a white shirt that plays in that position.

No place for me for Lawrence or Rooney in the starting 11.

[BathRam72]

22 minutes ago, Chris_Martin said:

My team for Saturday:

 

 

Subs: Roos, Wisdom, Bird, Holmes, Ibe, Rooney, Kazim, 

 

 

Two points.

1) You are not allowed 12 on the pitch at one time.

2) Not sure Mac will last 90 minutes. (he does speak dutchish though).  ?

[Dean (hick) Saunders]

Can’t even bear to think about any more DCFC matches at the moment.

I am going to pretend that we are now in the international break.

[Ghost of Clough]

24 minutes ago, brady1993 said:

I largely agree with your assessment and what you think but disagree to varying degrees with a couple selection. Before I say may reasons I'll say I'm coming from the position of thinking we need to gamble, be forward thinking, aggressive and attacking with players who are comfortable in possession. I just can't help we need to take the shackles off and try to impose our game. A draw is no good, only a win and a convincing one at that would keep Cocu his place.

1) Rooney over Waghorn. This is the bit I most strongly disagree on, Rooney may have a had a couple decent shots but he cause a myriad of tactical issues last night and would again played up front. He can't effectively challenge aerially and he can't threaten in behind severly limiting our options to go long. He hasn't got the energy to press effectively making a high press harder to maintain. He lacks the mobility to be a part of an interchanging front three. Our most dangerous looking front three has been Lawrence, Waghorn, Jozwiak and we should return to that.

Maybe I was a ad harsh on Waggy, as he was the only Derby player to hit the back of the net (his only shot of the game). I've felt Rooney's played quite well at CF so far, and with the two CMs pushing up closer to him, should be like watching prime Chris Martin again. Rooney gets the nod in this game due to the better performance last game but Waggy will lead the line more often than not this season.

24 minutes ago, brady1993 said:

2) Davies. I understand completely the logic here, it's obvious. However his complete lack of pace along side Clarke (who's not the quickest) means a high line is dangerous and therefore limits the ability to really press an opponent. That combined with a bit of sluggishness and clumsiness on the ball also makes it more difficult to control the game. It's possible this will be somewhat mitigated with Wisdom at RB (as he won't get pulled into that channel as much) but personally I'd be considering either Te Wierik or Wisdom here to get more ability on the ball and pace in the back line.

3) Wisdom. As alluded to above I'd be thinking about at centre back. I'd also be thinking of putting Byrne at right back so that we can more easily stretch Barnsely, keep width and be more attacking.

Byrne at RB would got exploited in the air. It was bad enough when we had Bogle there, Byrne would be even worse. Combine him with Wisdom at CB and you're asking for trouble. te Wierik is the best compromise of our CB options. With Wisdom playing RB, Davies' lack of pace wouldn't be exposed as much. 

24 minutes ago, brady1993 said:

4) Shinnie. I've shared my thoughts on a few occassions about him now. Pushed forward leading the press with Bird behind could solve some of the issues with him though. Frees him to doing all the leg work and not have to worry about starting the play. Also like you said he does deserve his place. Personally though I'd be bringing in Sibley to be more attacking without losing a lot of the energy.

This was another tough choice. My lineup was with the view to Sibley playing as one of the forwards, with Bielik, Bird and Knight eventually forming our midfield 3. So far, Sibley's found himself isolated and marked out of games when playing central. out wide he should have more space. I feel you have to reward good performances otherwise it sends out the wrong message. Shinnie would also add experience and game management to the midfield over Sibley.

24 minutes ago, brady1993 said:

Marshall

Byrne Te Wierik* Clarke Buchanan

Bird

Knight   Sibley

Jozwiak  Waghorn  Lawrence

Subs: Roos, Wisdom*, Holmes, Shinnie, Whittaker, Rooney, Kazim

 

 

[AutoWindscreens]

37 minutes ago, brady1993 said:

I largely agree with your assessment and what you think but disagree to varying degrees with a couple selection. Before I say may reasons I'll say I'm coming from the position of thinking we need to gamble, be forward thinking, aggressive and attacking with players who are comfortable in possession. I just can't help we need to take the shackles off and try to impose our game. A draw is no good, only a win and a convincing one at that would keep Cocu his place.

1) Rooney over Waghorn. This is the bit I most strongly disagree on, Rooney may have a had a couple decent shots but he cause a myriad of tactical issues last night and would again played up front. He can't effectively challenge aerially and he can't threaten in behind severly limiting our options to go long. He hasn't got the energy to press effectively making a high press harder to maintain. He lacks the mobility to be a part of an interchanging front three. Our most dangerous looking front three has been Lawrence, Waghorn, Jozwiak and we should return to that.

2) Davies. I understand completely the logic here, it's obvious. However his complete lack of pace along side Clarke (who's not the quickest) means a high line is dangerous and therefore limits the ability to really press an opponent. That combined with a bit of sluggishness and clumsiness on the ball also makes it more difficult to control the game. It's possible this will be somewhat mitigated with Wisdom at RB (as he won't get pulled into that channel as much) but personally I'd be considering either Te Wierik or Wisdom here to get more ability on the ball and pace in the back line.

3) Wisdom. As alluded to above I'd be thinking about at centre back. I'd also be thinking of putting Byrne at right back so that we can more easily stretch Barnsely, keep width and be more attacking.

4) Shinnie. I've shared my thoughts on a few occassions about him now. Pushed forward leading the press with Bird behind could solve some of the issues with him though. Frees him to doing all the leg work and not have to worry about starting the play. Also like you said he does deserve his place. Personally though I'd be bringing in Sibley to be more attacking without losing a lot of the energy.

Marshall

Byrne Te Wierik* Clarke Buchanan

Bird

Knight   Sibley

Jozwiak  Waghorn  Lawrence

Subs: Roos, Wisdom*, Holmes, Shinnie, Whittaker, Rooney, Kazim

 

Same here, but Wiz over MTW.

That said, I'm not going to watch or pay any attention. It's eyes shut, fingers in ears until somebody pulls them out and tells me Derby have won a game (whenever that might be!).

[Van der MoodHoover]

19 minutes ago, England Ram said:

The problem I have is with so many players under performing or looking like they don't give one.

 

For me-

                      Marshal

Bryne   TwWerk Clarke  Buchanan

           Shinie          Knight

                     Sibley

Joswiak       Waghorn     Morgan Whitiker     

 

I'd even think about dropping Waghorn if we have another forward to can control a football and pass it to a white shirt that plays in that position.

No place for me for Lawrence or Rooney in the starting 11.

It's this which hacks me off the most. For all of the strident "I told you Cocus tactics don't work" type messages, if you have players who jog around like your gran and cannot kick a football accurately more than about 5 feet, tactics become irrelevant.

No doubt there will be members who point to decisions Cocu has made that have led to morale plummeting to our current state but that is a different point - if the players don't have a certain level of pride and drive from within then whatever Cocu tries will be doomed. Perhaps he needs to have a stare-off with each player individually and pick the 11 who can out-stare him......?

[DCFC Kicks]

We need to playing Counter Attacking football. All our best players are suited to playing this way. Holmes/Lawrence/Waghorn/Jozwiak all need space to run into to play there best game. There completed wasted playing this slow buildup style.

[RoyMac5]

46 minutes ago, brady1993 said:

Rooney over Waghorn. This is the bit I most strongly disagree on, Rooney may have a had a couple decent shots but he cause a myriad of tactical issues last night and would again played up front. He can't effectively challenge aerially and he can't threaten in behind severly limiting our options to go long. He hasn't got the energy to press effectively making a high press harder to maintain. He lacks the mobility to be a part of an interchanging front three. 

Much better than Waghorn (can't trap a bag of cement) last night. Don't bloody interchange the front three then! They don't know their own jobs let alone each others ffs!

[RoyMac5]

10 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Maybe I was a ad harsh on Waggy, as he was the only Derby player to hit the back of the net (his only shot of the game).

Offside again (and again later..).

[brady1993]

5 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Maybe I was a ad harsh on Waggy, as he was the only Derby player to hit the back of the net (his only shot of the game). I've felt Rooney's played quite well at CF so far, and with the two CMs pushing up closer to him, should be like watching prime Chris Martin again. Rooney gets the nod in this game due to the better performance last game but Waggy will lead the line more often than not this season.

I get the idea but Martin could challenge better physically and in the air than Rooney can. Also Rooney has a tendancy (and has done all his career) to go "wandering" so I don't think it would work as you intend. Last night we bent over backwards tactically to try to get Rooney in the game and we got what was at best a middling performance out of him (and that was only the second half). We started him in a completely free role as a #10 where he was anonymous, crippled the midfield press and because of his lack of mobility combined with Jozwiak and Lawrence needing to start from wider positions it left Waghorn isolated for long stretches. We then switched around tactically and essentially allowed him a free role up front. Which admittedly he did more with but ultimately left us without a real focal point, no physical presence or threat in behind. Up front the furthest I can go is to say he's looked "fine at best" but when he's played there or in a more forward position in general I don't think it's a coincidence that the whole attack has looked more blunt.

Waghorn wasn't great last night, to be honest thought he had an unenviable task and minimal service when up front and then quickly got knackered out wide. But he has been far better in recent games.

19 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Byrne at RB would got exploited in the air. It was bad enough when we had Bogle there, Byrne would be even worse. Combine him with Wisdom at CB and you're asking for trouble. te Wierik is the best compromise of our CB options. With Wisdom playing RB, Davies' lack of pace wouldn't be exposed as much. 

I freely admit you have a point here that it is exploitable, whether Barnsley can exploit it is a different thing. Against stronger opposition in different circumstances I'd possibly go with Wisdom there as well but I think we really need to set our stall out against Barnsley to attack them and look to control the game in their half rather than compromising and worrying about them. You are right about Wisdom/Davies but ultimately I want better players on the ball in the team and more pace overall.

24 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

This was another tough choice. My lineup was with the view to Sibley playing as one of the forwards, with Bielik, Bird and Knight eventually forming our midfield 3. So far, Sibley's found himself isolated and marked out of games when playing central. out wide he should have more space. I feel you have to reward good performances otherwise it sends out the wrong message. Shinnie would also add experience and game management to the midfield over Sibley.

Personally think Sibley looks more dangerous driving from deep with the ball. I think he only looked isolated and marked out recently (bear in mind he's only started their twice this season) primarily because the opposition in those games only had to worry about him. I think playing behind a better front three in more a traditional midfield three he should be able to find space and drive at teams. I get what you are saying about performances but ultimately isn't right, it's unbalanced and we lack threat. Also thought Shinnie was dreadful last night. Finally yes he does bring experience but game management ? Not super sure about that one, depends on what you mean exactly and to counter it Sibley gives a genuine goal threat, creativity and technical ability.

With all that said, I don't think it matters really. You nailed what the actual team is going to be in your original post.

[brady1993]

22 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Much better than Waghorn (can't trap a bag of cement) last night. Don't bloody interchange the front three then! They don't know their own jobs let alone each others ffs!

Much better is a stretch. He was somewhat better last night despite the system being warped to get the most out of him and completely killing our ability to press. Even so he didn't perform as well as Waghorn has been doing recently up front.

Waghorn had an off game, Rooney has only been having off games this season.  

[brady1993]

36 minutes ago, AutoWindscreens said:

Same here, but Wiz over MTW.

That said, I'm not going to watch or pay any attention. It's eyes shut, fingers in ears until somebody pulls them out and tells me Derby have won a game (whenever that might be!).

Think it's a toss up between the two.

[RoyMac5]

13 minutes ago, brady1993 said:

Even so he didn't perform as well as Waghorn has been doing recently up front.

Waghorn had an off game, Rooney has only been having off games this season.  

Waghorn has had more tries at having a game than Rooney in that position. Waghorn will not get better at it, Rooney will. That much was clear from his play last night. He's still good enough at this level and he's looking much fitter.

[RadioactiveWaste]

Go back to 343 with MTW, Davies & Clarke, Byrne and Buchannan, Shinnie, Knight, Jozwiak, Waggy, Lawrence.

Shrek, Sibley and Ibe to come on as subs.

[brady1993]

8 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Waghorn has had more tries at having a game than Rooney in that position. Waghorn will not get better at it, Rooney will. That much was clear from his play last night. He's still good enough at this level and he's looking much fitter.

And has been better at it.......

You have to make several concessions to put Rooney in a side, so far his performances this season haven't warrented those concessions. His only good performances for us came playing in a deeper role where you can better account for his pace, his roaming is something you want and you make better use of his passing. 

[RoyMac5]

12 minutes ago, brady1993 said:

And has been better at it.......

Recently? Nope.