LeedsCityRam Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 19 hours ago, Jourdan said: What’s interesting for me is what must all of those fans who said this squad was mid-table at best be thinking. I always thought there was more to come from this group and I am glad that Cocu is not only silencing his doubters like myself but getting more and more out of the squad and closer to achieving what it is capable of. To be on the cusp of the play-offs after being in the mix for the relegation places in December, Cocu has done really well to stay calm and steady the ship. When the debates were raging in late December, the squad was at best midtable quality. Rooney hadnt started (something which was pointed out as a likely turning point) & neither Bird or Sibley had started a league match. I dont recall any of the Cocu-out posters clamouring for either player to be starting regularly...the timing of their emergence has come as a surprise to most. Theres no way we could have looked at the squad pre-Rooney, Bird and Sibley, with the injuries we had at the time and thought that it was a top 6 squad. It was nowhere near. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TigerTedd Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 24 minutes ago, LeedsCityRam said: I still think we'll fall short of the top 6 but what is interesting are our run of remaining fixtures. Over the season, we've struggled to convince & been very inconsistent...we've now hit some impressive form & a starting line up that looks both strong & settled. Are we good enough to go up? Games against West Brom, Leeds, Preston, Forest, Brentford and Cardiff are the big audition...if we can't beat most of that lot (all of who are above us), we would struggle horribly in the division above & therefore dont deserve to go up. If we do, then this team is ready to thrive at a higher level without the extra season that I (and many others) thought it needed to develop. No pressure, lets go for the jugular. That’s it. If we can sneak into 6th, we’ll have very much earnt it and have every chance in the play offs. Better than limping into 3rd on the back of a really strong start, and crap finish. Ahem Billy cough!! (that’s a nasty cough I’ve got there, better keep your distance). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brammie Steve Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 So, if the next eight game are six pointers we could end on 102 points? Simples.......not! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jourdan Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 42 minutes ago, LeedsCityRam said: When the debates were raging in late December, the squad was at best midtable quality. Rooney hadnt started (something which was pointed out as a likely turning point) & neither Bird or Sibley had started a league match. I dont recall any of the Cocu-out posters clamouring for either player to be starting regularly...the timing of their emergence has come as a surprise to most. Theres no way we could have looked at the squad pre-Rooney, Bird and Sibley, with the injuries we had at the time and thought that it was a top 6 squad. It was nowhere near. I disagree. The squad has never been the problem. This squad has always been good enough for the top 6. 5th or 6th, for example. Are we as good as Leeds, WBA, Fulham and Brentford? No. I don’t think anyone at any point was expecting us to be in the top 3-4 positions. But are we as good as Millwall, Swansea, Preston, Blackburn and Cardiff? Easily, but we spent half a season as masters of self-sabotage and refusing to show it. The difference between now and December is how well the squad is being managed. Rooney, Sibley, Bird and Clarke have all made a difference - that is undeniable. But would it matter if Cocu himself hadn’t settled down into the job and found his feet? I think it is quite telling that now the fans can predict 10 out of 11 players to start quite comfortably and can see what Cocu has in mind, even if they don’t always agree. Even as recently as February, that wasn’t the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyler Durden Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 Fair play to Cocu for turning the absolutely disastrous start to the season around, some of which he was accountable for, some totally out of his gift and starting to get the best out of what is, in reality, a very average squad of players despite the millions lavished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeedsCityRam Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 10 minutes ago, Jourdan said: I disagree. The squad has never been the problem. This squad has always been good enough for the top 6. 5th or 6th, for example. Are we as good as Leeds, WBA, Fulham and Brentford? No. I don’t think anyone at any point was expecting us to be in the top 3-4 positions. But are we as good as Millwall, Swansea, Preston, Blackburn and Cardiff? Easily, but we spent half a season as masters of self-sabotage and refusing to show it. The difference between now and December is how well the squad is being managed. Rooney, Sibley, Bird and Clarke have all made a difference - that is undeniable. But would it matter if Cocu himself hadn’t settled down into the job and found his feet? I think it is quite telling that now the fans can predict 10 out of 11 players to start quite comfortably and can see what Cocu has in mind, even if they don’t always agree. Even as recently as February, that wasn’t the case. Sorry but I dont follow your argument at all. The players you rightly identify as being key to our improvement were not available at the time when you also think the squad was not being well managed. Added to Rooney, Bird & Sibley not being available/up to speed, we also had lost Shinnie and Clarke to injury. You're not comparing apples with apples. There are also additional factors insofar as Joiners Arms incident robbing us of our best defender, a squad that inevitably was poorer for loss of loan players and Cocu himself needing time to bed in to a new country & see all his players in action. As to your point about fans needing to see what Cocu had in mind...this is why he manages & we support. Behind the scenes, he & his team were working on the young players to the extent that they are now key parts of a very exciting team. Its been nothing to do with 'him finding his feet', its been the realisation of plans...something that was only possible by him having time, which some on here would not have allowed him back in December. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chellaston Ram Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 Do we want to get promoted this season. Surely the Premier league would be too much of a big step at the moment for the Academy lads Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jono Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 1 hour ago, LeedsCityRam said: I still think we'll fall short of the top 6 but what is interesting are our run of remaining fixtures. Over the season, we've struggled to convince & been very inconsistent...we've now hit some impressive form & a starting line up that looks both strong & settled. Are we good enough to go up? Games against West Brom, Leeds, Preston, Forest, Brentford and Cardiff are the big audition...if we can't beat most of that lot (all of who are above us), we would struggle horribly in the division above & therefore dont deserve to go up. If we do, then this team is ready to thrive at a higher level without the extra season that I (and many others) thought it needed to develop. No pressure, lets go for the jugular. Yes, great point well made. Cocu’s team and philosophy are coming together .. the simplest of stats “goals scoredAnd points won” tell you that. these last games will tell is if we are a reincarnation of that Spice boys Liverpool team (talented but lightweight ) or if we have the grit to beat the better teams consistently. Driving up the table with the run in we have is a genuine test for these boys. The best bit is if we do fall short we’ll know what we have to do next time and we’ll be doing it on the front foot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Hughes Hair Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 4 minutes ago, Chellaston Ram said: Do we want to get promoted this season. Surely the Premier league would be too much of a big step at the moment for the Academy lads I'm not so sure. Yes it would be a massive learning curve but there is massive potential for them to grow and we would have the opportunity to augment our core squad too. Personally I'm at the point where I want us to go up, so we don't have any financial pressure to sell anyone. Particularly if we have to sell them to Watford. Yes we'd bob around the bottom early on but my outside bet would be on Archie Brown scoring the goal to keep us up with three games left to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EtoileSportiveDeDerby Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 7 hours ago, Paul71 said: if we make the play offs and boro go down, I might be in a & e from laughing so much Gibson might join you for head injury Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S8TY Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 1 hour ago, Jourdan said: I disagree. The squad has never been the problem. This squad has always been good enough for the top 6. 5th or 6th, for example. Are we as good as Leeds, WBA, Fulham and Brentford? No. I don’t think anyone at any point was expecting us to be in the top 3-4 positions. But are we as good as Millwall, Swansea, Preston, Blackburn and Cardiff? Easily, but we spent half a season as masters of self-sabotage and refusing to show it. The difference between now and December is how well the squad is being managed. Rooney, Sibley, Bird and Clarke have all made a difference - that is undeniable. But would it matter if Cocu himself hadn’t settled down into the job and found his feet? I think it is quite telling that now the fans can predict 10 out of 11 players to start quite comfortably and can see what Cocu has in mind, even if they don’t always agree. Even as recently as February, that wasn’t the case. You'll only be happy if there's something to question Cocu about...you don't like him or rate him and you've said this much... We won yesterday but i am yet to see one positive comment not one....you're still even now trying to look too deep and find something that can bolster your beliefs This squad is far from good enough to win this division even playing better as we are we are we probably lack a GK a CB and a striker a Goal machine like Scott Hogan as an example, but what Cocu has done is try to change how we play and that takes time and is he ever going to say Davies is past it Wisdom is not a CB etc etc .....no of course not but he has been working hard on the playing style and that can be seen by anyone watching the last few games ....you say fans can predict the 11 to start ??? They can't...most would've hard Chris Martin start yesterday including myself For the record mate it takes a lot of hours and hard work both on the training ground and in the classroom and meetings etc to get a team playing like we did at times yesterday...Pep is your example it took him a season you're now saying perhaps Cocu has settled into the job rather than giving the man the credit he deserves....found his feet??? i find your posts about Cocu quite disrespectful of the man to be honest because all you do is turn it to justify the fact you don't rate him .....next you'll be saying its the academy thats helped Cocu out rather than him having the brain to know when to put youngsters in and out ...just look at Cocu with Sibley after the final whistle......We have a decent coach with a team who will still have bad days learning how to adapt to what our manager wants but you carry on trying to justify yourself mate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S8TY Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 I have a question for you Jourdan You take over a football club as manager ....do you think you just walk in the dressing room and say oh by the way i want us to play like this ...or this ...and then hey presto thats sorted...lol............they will play like that as i told them lol....Cocu is straight out of the Cruyff Barcelona era the same as Pep at City.....it takes time Jourdan and hours and work...give the man time and some credit for goodness sake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rampage Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 Judging by the comments that Cocu referred to on how he expanded Sibley's range of skills, he has improved players before he.put them in. Therein lies the genius. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jourdan Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 On 20/06/2020 at 19:37, Jourdan said: Massive win today which keeps the season alive. We have to give massive credit to Cocu for his faith in the young players too. Picking both Bird and Sibley in midfield took some bravery and he must be ecstatic to see it pay off. A win next week and it’s most definitely game on. 22 hours ago, Jourdan said: What’s interesting for me is what must all of those fans who said this squad was mid-table at best be thinking. I always thought there was more to come from this group and I am glad that Cocu is not only silencing his doubters like myself but getting more and more out of the squad and closer to achieving what it is capable of. To be on the cusp of the play-offs after being in the mix for the relegation places in December, Cocu has done really well to stay calm and steady the ship. @S8TY, if you are going to accuse me of constantly being negative about Cocu, can you at least have the decency to read my posts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rampage Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 Cocu had an incomplete pre season as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeedsCityRam Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 51 minutes ago, jono said: Yes, great point well made. Cocu’s team and philosophy are coming together .. the simplest of stats “goals scoredAnd points won” tell you that. these last games will tell is if we are a reincarnation of that Spice boys Liverpool team (talented but lightweight ) or if we have the grit to beat the better teams consistently. Driving up the table with the run in we have is a genuine test for these boys. The best bit is if we do fall short we’ll know what we have to do next time and we’ll be doing it on the front foot. Cheers Jono. Yeah, totally agree with your last point. The obvious area of weakness is at the back but we'll all realise in a few weeks' time whether thats something that needs tweaking (because we've gone up) or whether its a fundamental problem (because lack of clean sheets have cost us a top 6 place) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rampage Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 11 points and £170 million quid. Go on then, count me in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Contain Nuts Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 There was a Brian Clough interview on Rams TV the other day where he said something like, and I'm paraphrasing, "a good manager makes a great team, a great team never makes a good manager' I'm generally against quoting people from decades ago to use as a guide to modern times, but there are plenty of times Clough is quoted as a means to criticise modem management so I thought hey, why not use a Clough quote to do the opposite? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jono Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 7 minutes ago, LeedsCityRam said: Cheers Jono. Yeah, totally agree with your last point. The obvious area of weakness is at the back but we'll all realise in a few weeks' time whether thats something that needs tweaking (because we've gone up) or whether its a fundamental problem (because lack of clean sheets have cost us a top 6 place) The defence is the weak point but, being a bit cheesy, I hope Tiewerk will be the tweak needed. I also think Evans may find a place at the back or as cover at the back. Don’t think we have found a natural LB RB Choice. Bogle Fozzy Lowe Wisdom and even Malone all offer something but form and opposition seems to undo them too often. I could write an essay on the strengths and weaknesses of all of them - lots of reasons why it HAS to each one of them but then there’s an error or a duffer of a game and I’m scratching my head. Still ... for the first time in an age we have a midfield that is commanding. With that, anything is possible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jono Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 18 minutes ago, Rampage said: 11 points and £170 million quid. Go on then, count me in. It’s scary isn’t it. The gap between 2 leagues. It makes me sad because it inhibits genuine sport and competition, in a sense it betrays dreams And stifles talent outside an elite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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