maxjam Posted November 5, 2020 Share Posted November 5, 2020 2 minutes ago, GboroRam said: If you could find that data it would be good to see. I know it's going to be worse with lockdown, but I've no idea how much worse. I'm not searching through the ONS website, but this article quotes it; https://www.itv.com/news/2020-10-19/number-of-people-dying-from-dementia-and-alzheimers-at-home-up-79-during-covid Nearly 25k excess deaths from March - Sept. And don't forget a lot of deaths (cancer etc) won't happen for months/years but their cause will be tracked back to missed or delayed appointments now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GboroRam Posted November 5, 2020 Share Posted November 5, 2020 1 minute ago, maxjam said: I'm not searching through the ONS website, but this article quotes it; https://www.itv.com/news/2020-10-19/number-of-people-dying-from-dementia-and-alzheimers-at-home-up-79-during-covid Nearly 25k excess deaths from March - Sept. And don't forget a lot of deaths (cancer etc) won't happen for months/years but their cause will be tracked back to missed or delayed appointments now. Maybe I'm misreading this, but it's excess deaths in private homes, not excess deaths. If you don't allow people into hospital and discharge elderly people to care homes, you'll see those deaths that would have happened in hospital as excess deaths in private homes. I don't think that can be used to say that more people died. Not saying they haven't, but that's not showing it. Suicides you can say are directly attributable to lockdown, and wouldn't have happened if we had remained open. Cancer deaths I can see the argument that they are going to be horribly increased whether you lockdown to save the NHS, or you let the disease run its course and overwhelm the NHS. It's a nightmare situation, but ending lockdown doesn't stop the nightmare. If it's uncontrolled, the deaths spiral, we've seen that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Posted November 5, 2020 Share Posted November 5, 2020 41 minutes ago, maxjam said: Thats just for suicides though - what about everything else? I read the other day that dementia deaths were approx double the 5 year average, as were deaths from alzheimers. We all know that cancer referrals are down over 75% and millions of screenings have been missed. Add to that the numerous other injuries and illnesses that will go untreated or missed leading to death, we're damned if we do and damned if we don't. Meanwhile, we're slowly succumbing to fear and an authoritarian state that is apparently drawing all of its conclusions from a small group of scientists promoting doomsday statistics and losing all of our humanity in the process. And you think that unlocking everything would improve those figures without increasing the Covid-19 deaths how? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Clough Posted November 5, 2020 Share Posted November 5, 2020 A work colleague of mine is half way through his isolation period... spotted in the pub last night...?♂️ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted November 5, 2020 Share Posted November 5, 2020 27 minutes ago, GboroRam said: Maybe I'm misreading this, but it's excess deaths in private homes, not excess deaths. If you don't allow people into hospital and discharge elderly people to care homes, you'll see those deaths that would have happened in hospital as excess deaths in private homes. I don't think that can be used to say that more people died. Not saying they haven't, but that's not showing it. An article from The Guardian re. dementia; https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/05/covid-19-causing-10000-dementia-deaths-beyond-infections-research-says -basically from lack of care at home they would normally have received and loneliness following reducing family visits. 31 minutes ago, GboroRam said: It's a nightmare situation, but ending lockdown doesn't stop the nightmare. If it's uncontrolled, the deaths spiral, we've seen that. I wouldn't end the lockdown without another plan, broadening the data (ie listening to more than just Vallance and Whitty) would be a start. We're already entering la second lockdown under a false set of stats, listening to a wider range of voices would be beneficial imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted November 5, 2020 Share Posted November 5, 2020 33 minutes ago, Eddie said: And you think that unlocking everything would improve those figures without increasing the Covid-19 deaths how? I've never said unlock everything at let it rip. Shield the vulnerable and let the rest get about their business. Apparently the 3 tier system was bringing the R rate down again - we just didn't give it long enough to work and jumped straight into another lockdown. The messaging has been mixed over the summer and people have been lax, hence the high infection rates we're seeing at the moment - just like it will be over Christmas if we come out of lockdown and everyone starts partying again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmyp Posted November 5, 2020 Share Posted November 5, 2020 56 minutes ago, maxjam said: I've never said unlock everything at let it rip. Shield the vulnerable and let the rest get about their business. Apparently the 3 tier system was bringing the R rate down again - we just didn't give it long enough to work and jumped straight into another lockdown. The messaging has been mixed over the summer and people have been lax, hence the high infection rates we're seeing at the moment - just like it will be over Christmas if we come out of lockdown and everyone starts partying again. I think the three tier strategy along with another increase in testing could be the future, along with therapeutics etc. They obviously need to tweak the criteria for activating the relevant tier system going forwards though. Whilst the case rate of infections in the highest tiers have been decreasing, the hospitals in those areas have been severely disrupted. Was this because the tiers were introduced to late, or because we didn’t have an accurate infection rate for the area? Hopefully this lockdown will enable the NHS to continue elective procedures without severe disruption, whilst operating within the tier system in the near future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Posted November 5, 2020 Share Posted November 5, 2020 1 hour ago, maxjam said: Shield the vulnerable and let the rest get about their business. For how many years? By and large, the 'vulnerable' have taken this seriously from the start whereas others, let's say, some others, have adopted a 'why bother?' attitude. I would be all in favour of giving the general population 6 days out of 7 to 'go about your business', and 1 day out of 7 where you plague-spreaders ? ALL stay at home and allow the 'vulnerable' unfettered access to everything. Not a lot to ask, is it? Any day - just one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rammieib Posted November 5, 2020 Share Posted November 5, 2020 Anyone know the legal position for an employee if they WANT to work in the office but their job could be done at home? Everything I'm reading online is about working from home but working from home isn't for everyone - so I'd like to know the legal position if a company can force you to work from home or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted November 5, 2020 Share Posted November 5, 2020 26 minutes ago, Eddie said: For how many years? Would you act any differently regardless of what others do before getting a vaccine? I know its harsh but the vast majority of people will get minor to no symptoms and we're locking everyone away because of a minority - people like my parents who won't now go out until their is a vaccine anyway. 31 minutes ago, Eddie said: By and large, the 'vulnerable' have taken this seriously from the start whereas others, let's say, some others, have adopted a 'why bother?' attitude. A lot have, but a lot have also thought they haven't got much time left on the planet anyway so they are going to enjoy it. Others have had their fates left in the hands of the gods due to lack of sufficient care home hygiene practises. If we had a better plan, we could have let covid run rampant through the university population etc without seeing its impact in wider society. 34 minutes ago, Eddie said: I would be all in favour of giving the general population 6 days out of 7 to 'go about your business', and 1 day out of 7 where you plague-spreaders ? ALL stay at home and allow the 'vulnerable' unfettered access to everything. Not a lot to ask, is it? Any day - just one. Works for me, have a couple of days - one for the elderly, one for the vulnerable. Far better than locking everyone down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Clough Posted November 5, 2020 Share Posted November 5, 2020 1 hour ago, rammieib said: Anyone know the legal position for an employee if they WANT to work in the office but their job could be done at home? Everything I'm reading online is about working from home but working from home isn't for everyone - so I'd like to know the legal position if a company can force you to work from home or not? I think it's down to the company to decide. I imagine it'll come down to cost as it's not worth while keeping the lights and heating on if just 1 person is working in the office. There's also the cost of cleaners, security, etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted November 5, 2020 Share Posted November 5, 2020 15 hours ago, jimmyp said: That’s for 2019. Taken from the article “Given the length of time it takes to hold an inquest (around five months), we do not currently know the total number of suicides that occurred during the coronavirus pandemic.” Sorry for the late response, was in a foul mood after the match last night! Yes, it would appear that maybe people are jumping the gun and the data is not available. I think it's a pretty safe assumption though that when the data is released it will point to an increase in deaths across the board. Obviously the cancer deaths may be spread over a number of years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GboroRam Posted November 5, 2020 Share Posted November 5, 2020 18 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said: I think it's down to the company to decide. I imagine it'll come down to cost as it's not worth while keeping the lights and heating on if just 1 person is working in the office. There's also the cost of cleaners, security, etc... It's about safety and security of everyone on site. I know there's a hell of a drive to get people to home, as it simplifies the operation of the offices if you can minimise the people in it. I doubt you will have any legal right to go to the office. HASAWA says it's everyone's responsibility to look out for the health of everyone else, so you have a statutory duty to follow their instructions if it is about minimising the virus on site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted November 5, 2020 Share Posted November 5, 2020 Looking forwards to the Spring Sale - where everything in the UK thats not nailed down is sold off ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rammieib Posted November 5, 2020 Share Posted November 5, 2020 1 hour ago, Ghost of Clough said: I think it's down to the company to decide. I imagine it'll come down to cost as it's not worth while keeping the lights and heating on if just 1 person is working in the office. There's also the cost of cleaners, security, etc... I work in a manufacturing facility - open full time throughout - fully covid secure. I just don't enjoy home working and have my own office here. So I'm just curious if the governments work from home is a legal requirement or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted November 5, 2020 Share Posted November 5, 2020 6 hours ago, maxjam said: I read the other day that dementia deaths were approx double the 5 year average, as were deaths from alzheimers Alzheimers and dementia deaths though...they are life-limiting incurable illnesses . Generally people at the end stage of those illnesses have no quality of life anyway, and mostly die from other stuff . If coronavirus had taken my Nan a couple of years early it would have been a blessing for her and us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfie Posted November 5, 2020 Share Posted November 5, 2020 18 minutes ago, rammieib said: I work in a manufacturing facility - open full time throughout - fully covid secure. I just don't enjoy home working and have my own office here. So I'm just curious if the governments work from home is a legal requirement or not. Hope not. I'm exactly the same as you. I can be productive at home but much prefer to work (safely) in the office. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GboroRam Posted November 5, 2020 Share Posted November 5, 2020 36 minutes ago, rammieib said: I work in a manufacturing facility - open full time throughout - fully covid secure. I just don't enjoy home working and have my own office here. So I'm just curious if the governments work from home is a legal requirement or not. I know people not leaving when requested is causing a headache for my HR team. I strongly suspect they could tell you you must work from home under H&S at work regs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted November 5, 2020 Share Posted November 5, 2020 1 hour ago, SchtivePesley said: Alzheimers and dementia deaths though...they are life-limiting incurable illnesses . Generally people at the end stage of those illnesses have no quality of life anyway, and mostly die from other stuff . If coronavirus had taken my Nan a couple of years early it would have been a blessing for her and us. Given that the average age of Covid deaths is 82 (1 year higher than the average death rate) do you think that this may apply to a lot of these deaths? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angry Ram Posted November 5, 2020 Share Posted November 5, 2020 1 hour ago, rammieib said: I work in a manufacturing facility - open full time throughout - fully covid secure. I just don't enjoy home working and have my own office here. So I'm just curious if the governments work from home is a legal requirement or not. Talk to your employer. I have a mix of people who either love or hate WFH. We have to have some people on site, so the building is open anyway. As an employer I have to do what I can to minimise risk but also be aware of other issues the staff might have. Where I can we allow people to mix rotas. Day in, day out etc. It seems to work for us and finds the middle ground. It is just a recommendation that staff who could work from home do so, that's all. If you have your own office etc, should be fine. Each business will be slightly different though, so engage with HR or however has the responsibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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