RoyMac5 Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 8 hours ago, Alpha said: I am joking. I found it ironic that the things that should make people proud to be from Britain/England he's going against. British values make it on of the most tolerable countries in the world? Even if people do seem to forget that. Nothing should stop you being proud to be from England. What can? I'm taking the last bit as irony. I was a bit wearied by all the hatred being spewed around recently (and not so). I grew up with Alf Garnet and thought he was dead, apparently not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TramRam Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 12 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said: I'm taking the last bit as irony. I was a bit wearied by all the hatred being spewed around recently (and not so). I grew up with Alf Garnet and thought he was dead, apparently not. So did I, Also "Love they Neighbour" "It aint half hot Mum" "Rising Damp" "Mind your language" "Little Britain" even the "Comidians" with Charlie Williams who would often use his colour for a laugh, All had undertones of racism with Characters of colour, I'll call out a racist when I see or hear a racist, But to use a comedy character as an example is a poor excuse...imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramsbottom Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 My specialist first team coach - https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2020/jun/05/open-letter-donald-trump-us-president-george-floyd-liam-rosenior Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 13 hours ago, maxjam said: unless you address the real reason why violence is far more prevalent in the Black community you aren't really looking to solve the problem long term, When you leave it hanging like that, you open the door for plenty of people to conclude "it's because the black community is full of violent wrong-uns, so it's their own fault really" - and I'm pretty sure that's not your intention? You have to ask a lot more reductive questions than that to get to the root of it (and along the way ,the answer to a lot of those questions is "because US society is sytemically racist") Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 Grant Shapps can absolutely do one with the "We only came in to government in December" nonsense he was spouting this morning. The Conservative Party have been in charge for 10 years, you don't get to magically write off everything prior to December mate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 8 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said: When you leave it hanging like that, you open the door for plenty of people to conclude "it's because the black community is full of violent wrong-uns, so it's their own fault really" - and I'm pretty sure that's not your intention? You have to ask a lot more reductive questions than that to get to the root of it (and along the way ,the answer to a lot of those questions is "because US society is sytemically racist") I'm not leaving it hanging and only the mean-spirited or heavily biased read meanings into something that is unsaid. It is a massive debate that we've had at times in the past but due to the sensitivity of the argument is now against forum rules. We are only touching on it here because its massive worldwide news ? I don't believe the US is systemically racist to the degree that is being made out. Nigerians for example earn significantly more than the median wage in the US - why is that? Surely if it was purely based on skin colour they wouldn't stand out as a minority Black group that are succeeding in the US. https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2015-10-13/it-isn-t-just-asian-immigrants-who-excel-in-the-u-s- John Boyega gave a great speech the other day during which he asked Black men to stand up and take responsibility for their own actions and become good husbands and fathers. In the US the two factors that statistically almost guarantee success are having parents that remain together and a college education - almost 75% of Black kids are from fatherless families. https://metro.co.uk/2020/06/03/john-boyega-passionate-speech-hyde-park-demonstration-following-george-floyds-death-12799584/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 9 minutes ago, maxjam said: almost 75% of Black kids are from fatherless families And why is that? You can't just stop there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 3 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said: And why is that? You can't just stop there Terms of Use say otherwise. We've had several interesting conversations before that all get removed because they become contentious. I have little interest in wasting my time or risking a warning because someone has misinterpreted something I said ? I have made enough posts on the subject now that I've started repeating myself and provided a lot of examples that imo don't show overt racism or systematic bias. I believe that if you address other factors such as poverty, family values, education, etc 90% of the argument disappears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alph Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 2 hours ago, TramRam said: I don't think we disagree on the police officers being complicit. I'm supportive of the idea that the outcome would have been different it Floyd was white. However, it wasn't 4 white police officers wrongly harassing a black man. It was a mixed group investigating a crime. Can we discount the possibility that it would have happened to a white man? Can we say it was definitely a racially motivated murder? BUT, it has brought attention to something America has neglected for centuries. And brought some awareness to how we can still improve in the UK. So maybe something positive can come out of this sad situation. Yeah, she is still alive. I didn't mean to imply she was dead by using the word 'was' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TramRam Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 8 minutes ago, Alpha said: I don't think we disagree on the police officers being complicit. I'm supportive of the idea that the outcome would have been different it Floyd was white. However, it wasn't 4 white police officers wrongly harassing a black man. It was a mixed group investigating a crime. Can we discount the possibility that it would have happened to a white man? Can we say it was definitely a racially motivated murder? BUT, it has brought attention to something America has neglected for centuries. And brought some awareness to how we can still improve in the UK. So maybe something positive can come out of this sad situation. Yeah, she is still alive. I didn't mean to imply she was dead by using the word 'was' Maybe, Maybe not. Watch the video, 2 white officers push an elderly man to the floor, Blood is seen coming from the mans head, I hope he survives his "later found to have suffered a severe head injury" Officers now suspended. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52932611 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anon Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 1 hour ago, Alpha said: I don't think we disagree on the police officers being complicit. I'm supportive of the idea that the outcome would have been different it Floyd was white. Look up a guy called Tony Timpa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highgate Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 1 hour ago, maxjam said: I'm not leaving it hanging and only the mean-spirited or heavily biased read meanings into something that is unsaid. It is a massive debate that we've had at times in the past but due to the sensitivity of the argument is now against forum rules. We are only touching on it here because its massive worldwide news ? I don't believe the US is systemically racist to the degree that is being made out. Nigerians for example earn significantly more than the median wage in the US - why is that? Surely if it was purely based on skin colour they wouldn't stand out as a minority Black group that are succeeding in the US. https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2015-10-13/it-isn-t-just-asian-immigrants-who-excel-in-the-u-s- John Boyega gave a great speech the other day during which he asked Black men to stand up and take responsibility for their own actions and become good husbands and fathers. In the US the two factors that statistically almost guarantee success are having parents that remain together and a college education - almost 75% of Black kids are from fatherless families. https://metro.co.uk/2020/06/03/john-boyega-passionate-speech-hyde-park-demonstration-following-george-floyds-death-12799584/ That's an alarming statistic. Is it true? It doesn't seem likely. It seems the problem lies in fact with the definition of 'fatherless'. It's usually 70% that is mentioned but it appears to refer to 'unmarried', so ruling out perfectly happy families that are cohabiting but just aren't married. Marriage does seem to be going out of fashion in certain communities (and with good reason if you ask me). In practical terms married/cohabiting makes very little difference. The CDC (for some reason they collect stats such as this) suggests that the figure of black fathers living with the children is actually 60% and that among the various ethnic groups, black fathers who live with their children are in fact the most involved of all ethnic groups in the children's day to day lives. It's also important to remember that families where the parents are not married/cohabiting are not necessarily 'fatherless'. The parents could still be working together to raise the children. 'Fatherless' conjures up an image of a father that has refuses to take any responsibility for their child at all, or maybe dead or in prison. The reality seems to be quite different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 1 hour ago, maxjam said: I believe that if you address other factors such as poverty, family values, education, etc 90% of the argument disappears. Not sure which argument you refer to, but it's difficult to see how anyone could argue that addressing those factors in the US black community will be far more challenging due to 100+ years of systemic racism weighted against them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Kevin Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 There are quite a few stories and observations from WW2 when Black G.I.s came over and the British public where appalled how they were treated by their fellow countrymen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 9 minutes ago, Highgate said: That's an alarming statistic. Is it true? Of course it's not true! It's just the propogation of a racial stereotype by using unreferenced statistics Max may be able to provide evidence, but it will be from a far right-wing source I suspect The only official studies I've seen referenced say it's nearer 25% (and 15% in white kids..) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkFruitsRam7 Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 An interesting stat in this article: https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/08/09/what-weve-learned-about-police-shootings-years-after-ferguson/?arc404=true&itid=lk_inline_manual_11 Surely, even accounting for he disproportionate numbers of black people in more deprived, crime-filled areas, the multiplier of roughly 4.5x seems a cause for concern? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 5 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said: Of course it's not true! It's just the propogation of a racial stereotype by using unreferenced statistics Max may be able to provide evidence, but it will be from a far right-wing source I suspect The only official studies I've seen referenced say it's nearer 25% (and 15% in white kids..) Just googled it, first article I looked at was from that notorious far right-wing website, Reuters. It was 56% back in 2004; https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-fathers-idUSN0419185720070614 If you want more up-to-date info look for it yourself, I'm sick of being repeatedly called far-right either outright or by association by just because I'm willing to look at all sides of difficult subjects. Anymore questions? You can probably find my answer in previous posts ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 26 minutes ago, maxjam said: Just googled it, first article I looked at was from that notorious far right-wing website, Reuters. It was 56% back in 2004; https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-fathers-idUSN0419185720070614 If you want more up-to-date info look for it yourself, I'm sick of being repeatedly called far-right either outright or by association by just because I'm willing to look at all sides of difficult subjects. Anymore questions? You can probably find my answer in previous posts ? I looked up the latest US Census Bureau figures so it's 46% of black children reported as living with mother only. Which is a LONG way from your unsubstiated blithe 75% comment. You understand that words have consequences? Not suggesting you did it deliberately, but it's archetypal fake news. Someone will have read that and believed it - and be repeating it elsewhere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anon Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 7 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said: You understand that words have consequences? Not suggesting you did it deliberately, but it's archetypal fake news. Someone will have read that and believed it - and be repeating it elsewhere On 02/06/2020 at 10:15, SchtivePesley said: Context? OK. The US is far from oppressive when you don't live there and you aren't a poor non-white person. In that respect you are right. It's far from oppressive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GboroRam Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 1 hour ago, Anon said: Look up a guy called Tony Timpa. He's got so many clothes he keeps some at his aunt's house? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.