New: Manager or not

[AdamRam]

Just now, Tyler Durden said:

This is getting tedious now no offense, it's clear you want to steer me to the answer you are seeking so it might be easier to tell me what you would like me to say if it then furthers your agenda. 

No agenda, you said all managers have injuries and that cannot be used as an excuse. Therefore I'm simply asking in your opinion why Pep has struggled to maintain City's form from last season as in your opinion it cannot be attributed to having several injury problems in centre defence. 
 

I can only assume you think it's down to the manager as to why they are so far behind Liverpool this season ? 

[Dean (hick) Saunders]

I fall into the “Fed up with the poo football and poor results but also fed up with chopping/changing managers camp”.

Sticking therefore with my view of see where we are in the summer.

(I am assuming here that with Rooney and a couple of other January transfer window improvements we will be sufficiently clear from relegation. If come end of Feb we are still poop, then I may jump camp).

[Robram]

Think the DET might be onto something here.....

 

It is not on our agenda that he will leave the club in January."

Cocu was on the substitutes' bench again in the Boxing Day fixture at Wigan.

He replaced Chris Martin on the hour and made a difference to Derby's attacking threat in the 1-1 draw.

[Jourdan]

29 minutes ago, AdamRam said:

They needed a lot of money to compete at the top of the PL, we are in a league below. What they all needed was time to implement their philosophy.

I agree that they needed time to implement their philosophy.

But they were proven successes in what they were being asked to do - get a club to compete for honours at the very highest level.

You give Klopp the time based on his success with Dortmund and you give Guardiola the time based on his success with Barcelona and Bayern.

If it could work at Dortmund, Barcelona and Bayern, then there is a rather logical pathway to success with clubs of great size and resources like Liverpool and Man City.

I don’t see the same correlation between doing a job at PSV and doing a job at Derby. It’s watermelons and grapefruit.

What has Cocu done in his career that is comparable to managing in the second tier of English football, that makes him a safe bet as Klopp and Guardiola were?

[BondJovi]

1 minute ago, Cam the Ram said:

I'm not simplifying the situations and people's opinions at all and have repeatedly responded to people with why I think he isn't the right man for the job. As I originally said (which you seem to have ignored half of), the reasons I've seen people give for Cocu staying is both his long contract AND needing stability, I.E giving him multiple transfer windows, just like you stated. I've responded with my opinion, which is that he hasn't got a single player performing better than they did last season, so I'm not sure letting him splash the cash is the most sensible thing to do given we're already pushing our luck with FFP. The squad we have isn't great admittedly, but at his disposal he has a handful of talented players and a striking trio that includes two players who have over 100 Championship goals between them and another who was 1 of the most in demand football league strikers just 18 months ago. Yet here were are, not far off the bottom 3 and are the 2nd lowest scorers in the league. A large part of that is down to the players of course, but his team selections and tactics have regularly raised eyebrows and not delivered. Regardless of the injuries and off-field problems, I still believe the team at his disposal is massively under-performing and so don't believe it would be sensible to give him multiple transfer windows to presumably spend a large sum of money when as of right now he's struggling to get anything out of the current team.

I do agree with you and the others that we will improve after he's made some signings of his own, but I'm a glass half empty kind of person and on the evidence of the past 5 months of football, I personally just don't believe he is the right manager for this club. 

You can find plenty of examples of sticking with the manager being the right thing, plenty where sacking was. As we well know, sometimes that change is purely a short term boost and then all returns as before, sometimes it transforms the club.

We have appointed with a long term view in mind. I honestly believe without the Keogh saga we would be having a much better season, I think it has caused big issues and add that to the injuries. The phrase babtism of fire springs to mind. We saw under Mac1s second season how easily injuries can derail a season. The Keogh saga alone is enough to do the same.

We need stability and in this league just one good run can make all the difference. I'd rather we held the players accountable for once because as a  Derby player you probably know you'll be here longer than the manager, plenty of fresh starts... Easy money.

[Uptherams]

19 minutes ago, AdamRam said:

No agenda, you said all managers have injuries and that cannot be used as an excuse. Therefore I'm simply asking in your opinion why Pep has struggled to maintain City's form from last season as in your opinion it cannot be attributed to having several injury problems in centre defence. 
 

I can only assume you think it's down to the manager as to why they are so far behind Liverpool this season ? 

Once a team is no longer seen as invincible, then teams change their approach and mindset drastically. Last season, every week opponents were going into matches against Man City thinking how the hell are we even going to win this? To setting up to somehow try and concede as little as possible and hope to pick up a goal that could lead to 1 or 3 points from pure frustration and luck. The fixture was considered a loss before it was even  played. 

If Liverpool were to not win their next two league games, the same would occur with them too. The mindset and approach of their opponents would drastically change. 

[S8TY]

2 minutes ago, Uptherams said:

Once a team is no longer seen as invincible, then teams change their approach and mindset drastically. Last season, every week opponents were going into matches against Man City thinking how the hell are we even going to win this? To setting up to somehow try and concede as little as possible and hope to pick up a goal that could lead to 1 or 3 points from pure frustration. The fixture was considered a loss before it was even  played. 

If Liverpool were to not win their next two league games, the same would occur with them too. The mindset and approach of their opponents would drastically change. 

So City have dropped off of the pace due to other teams thinking they are not invincible ? yes but why ?? that is the question

How about influential players like Kompany have left and they have had key injuries meaning one of there best players is now having to play Centre Half...coupled with a few big money signings like Stones and Mendy not performing and being out of form...it happens even to the best managers and you can try to patch up the frailties but you are none the less weaker

[AdamRam]

8 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

I agree that they needed time to implement their philosophy.

But they were proven successes in what they were being asked to do - get a club to compete for honours at the very highest level.

You give Klopp the time based on his success with Dortmund and you give Guardiola the time based on his success with Barcelona and Bayern.

If it could work at Dortmund, Barcelona and Bayern, then there is a rather logical pathway to success with clubs of great size and resources like Liverpool and Man City.

I don’t see the same correlation between doing a job at PSV and doing a job at Derby. It’s watermelons and grapefruit.

What has Cocu done in his career that is comparable to managing in the second tier of English football, that makes him a safe bet as Klopp and Guardiola were?

But your never going to get a manager with their proven ability to come to a championship club, hence why you have to get someone in who shares the owner's philosophy and give them time to implement it.

I'm not saying he is going to be a success and comparing the two is only to give an example of no matter what pedigree and money you have, it can take time to get the club to be successful.

[AdamRam]

10 minutes ago, Uptherams said:

Once a team is no longer seen as invincible, then teams change their approach and mindset drastically. Last season, every week opponents were going into matches against Man City thinking how the hell are we even going to win this? To setting up to somehow try and concede as little as possible and hope to pick up a goal that could lead to 1 or 3 points from pure frustration and luck. The fixture was considered a loss before it was even  played. 

If Liverpool were to not win their next two league games, the same would occur with them too. The mindset and approach of their opponents would drastically change. 

Any yet many of the top pundits all put it down to their ability to stop conceding goals which is a direct result of key players being lost and not adequately being replaced, Kompany being the prime example.

Id accept the argument that we should be performing better than we are, however not that the injuries we have had not playing a part in this.

[Uptherams]

3 minutes ago, S8TY said:

So City have dropped off of the pace due to other teams thinking they are not invincible ? yes but why ?? that is the question

How about influential players like Kompany have left and they have had key injuries meaning one of there best players is now having to play Centre Half...coupled with a few big money signings like Stones and Mendy not performing and being out of form...it happens even to the best managers and you can try to patch up the frailties but you are none the less weaker

They still have a good enough side to be challenging Liverpool but Liverpool are doing exceptional. Liverpool have just one draw this season. Liverpool would still  be considered to be doing exceptionally well if they had drawn another and lost 1 too. If Man City were then to have won just another one, they would only be 6 points behind an exceptional Liverpool side. If Man City are to win tonight and they matched this form in the second half of the season they'd finish on 82 points. That is still title winning territory if there is no exceptional side in the league. 

Are we seriously trying to compare ourselves to Man City and injuries? By comparison, we are doing awful. 

[Uptherams]

8 minutes ago, AdamRam said:

Any yet many of the top pundits all put it down to their ability to stop conceding goals which is a direct result of key players being lost and not adequately being replaced, Kompany being the prime example.

Id accept the argument that we should be performing better than we are, however not that the injuries we have had not playing a part in this.

We are not comparable at all. Man City are still a top performing side. They still have a style of play and many strengths, despite significant injuries. We are displaying absolutely nothing. 

[Jourdan]

4 minutes ago, AdamRam said:

But your never going to get a manager with their proven ability to come to a championship club, hence why you have to get someone in who shares the owner's philosophy and give them time to implement it.

I'm not saying he is going to be a success and comparing the two is only to give an example of no matter what pedigree and money you have, it can take time to get the club to be successful.

Of course, things can take time. But it is also knowing when to invest time and when not to.

With Klopp and Guardiola and their track records of top flight success, it was a safe bet that they would eventually find success here.

This is Cocu’s first time managing in England and his first time managing in the second tier, so he is not a safe bet whatsoever.

Honestly his track record would fill me with all the confidence and patience in the world if we were a Premier League club outside of the top 6.

Take a club like Southampton. Everything points to him being a great fit for a club in that position.

But we are in the Championship. It’s a world away from any previous success he has had.

[rammieib]

3 hours ago, RoyMac5 said:

He can't get FloJo to look any good, he knows him and his weaknesses, who will he get in at Championship level I wonder that can (as someone said) actualise Cocu's plan?

Edit: that's FloJo who other players had down as the most skillful at the club!!!

What is that plan?

He complained yesterday about not making runs behind their defence especially in first half but then I didn’t see him once on the side telling the players to make the runs. It was blatantly obvious after five mins this was needed.

[AdamRam]

9 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

Of course, things can take time. But it is also knowing when to invest time and when not to.

With Klopp and Guardiola and their track records of top flight success, it was a safe bet that they would eventually find success here.

This is Cocu’s first time managing in England and his first time managing in the second tier, so he is not a safe bet whatsoever.

Honestly his track record would fill me with all the confidence and patience in the world if we were a Premier League club outside of the top 6.

Take a club like Southampton. Everything points to him being a great fit for a club in that position.

But we are in the Championship. It’s a world away from any previous success he has had.

Agreed however once you take the plunge to employ him, for me you have to give him time. Everything you have above is around the question to employ him in the first place, Mel took the call based on interviewing him he was the right person to take the club in the direction he wants.

Im sure he isn't pleased with the league position however is he meeting all the other targets that was agreed when he signed on ? Do I think he will succeed ? I honestly don't know but for me the issues he has to deal with to date means it's to early to judge him.

[S8TY]

26 minutes ago, Uptherams said:

They still have a good enough side to be challenging Liverpool but Liverpool are doing exceptional. Liverpool have just one draw this season. Liverpool would still  be considered to be doing exceptionally well if they had drawn another and lost 1 too. If Man City were then to have won just another one, they would only be 6 points behind an exceptional Liverpool side. If Man City are to win tonight and they matched this form in the second half of the season they'd finish on 82 points. That is still title winning territory if there is no exceptional side in the league. 

Are we seriously trying to compare ourselves to Man City and injuries? By comparison, we are doing awful. 

Yes an established top side like City are not going to win the league this season not because the manager has got it wrong on the pitch because he can only pick who he thinks is suitable from what he has....eg fernandinho playing CB is not ideal and losing Kompany hasn't helped.

It is not a direct comparison but if you look at our situation it has not been helped by losing Keogh,Mount,Temori,Wilson etc 

Together with what has gone on with the joiners arms etc it has affected us more than if Cocu had had the same squad as last season....I'd go further to say if Cocu had last seasons squad he'd have done a lot better so its not all down to the manager....some may argue he could be doing better and i tend to agree but to get rid of him without seeing if he can change it with players more suited is harsh in my view....the great Brian Clough did not have a very good season in his first season but had a long term vision/solution.....I am not convinced by our scouting system and would rather have someone like Rosenior in charge of recruitment and still being hands on the training ground.....you can't have a scouting system that is not attached to the manager and coaches and hopefully this is not the case.....but was worrying when Cocu mentioned he might have to  try and get players he knows and trusts...if that statement is true that is worrying  that our scouting network is not working or thinking the same as our manager 

[Jourdan]

16 minutes ago, AdamRam said:

Agreed however once you take the plunge to employ him, for me you have to give him time. Everything you have above is around the question to employ him in the first place, Mel took the call based on interviewing him he was the right person to take the club in the direction he wants.

Im sure he isn't pleased with the league position however is he meeting all the other targets that was agreed when he signed on ? Do I think he will succeed ? I honestly don't know but for me the issues he has to deal with to date means it's to early to judge him.

You are right. It was a gamble employing Cocu. And now the gamble has become whether to retain him or not.

Up until recently, I was of the same opinion. Cocu needs time and it’s too early to judge.

But that is fair to say after 6 games. Fair to say after 10 games. Fair to say after 15 games.

But we are now 24 games in, in the thick of our worst run of the season, and looking primed for a relegation battle.

If we go all in with Cocu and it goes wrong, it could set the club back 4-5 years.

[Mafiabob]

37 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

You are right. It was a gamble employing Cocu. And now the gamble has become whether to retain him or not.

Up until recently, I was of the same opinion. Cocu needs time and it’s too early to judge.

But that is fair to say after 6 games. Fair to say after 10 games. Fair to say after 15 games.

But we are now 24 games in, in the thick of our worst run of the season, and looking primed for a relegation battle.

If we go all in with Cocu and it goes wrong, it could set the club back 4-5 years.

You could say, the club was set back 4-5 years the day we sacked Mac the 1st time around, and then embroiled in getting rid of managers, then employing someone to help out Wassall just because we didn’t take kind to one meltdown game away at Rotherham......

Ive seen somewhere that if Cocus name was any other manager we’d be calling for peoples heads.....

This is not a dig at Mel..... before anyone jumps on at me..... but it’s the same for him too, I think if he wasn’t from Derby..... they’d be a lot more critical people here.

You know what’s the worst, you’re either Cocu in or Cocu out, Keogh is or isn’t a Captain, Martin is pivotal or a donkey (I’m guilty here)..... there is no middle ground with anything anymore, no logic, just get chucked into a camp and that’s it.

I remember suggesting Keogh is a class defender at this level..... all of a sudden people take what I say differently....”you’re saying he’s better than Stimac or Mark Wright then?” And that opinion goes round and carries on..... people don’t read what you’re saying anymore.

Think I’m done for a bit on the forum, I’ll probably come back commenting in the New Year.

No malice to anyone, we all love football, I just think it’s unhealthy to be either in or out, like I say, I hold my hands up in that part..... sometimes admitting it is better than doubling down.

 

Happy New Year

 

Regards The Mafia

 

[Dean (hick) Saunders]

Discuss.

[KCG]

4 minutes ago, Dean (hick) Saunders said:

Discuss.

You'll hear the views of the noisy majority at Pride Park if we are gash again, especially if there is a strange team selection.

[AdamRam]

1 hour ago, Uptherams said:

We are not comparable at all. Man City are still a top performing side. They still have a style of play and many strengths, despite significant injuries. We are displaying absolutely nothing. 

Nobody is saying they are comparable, then point is that key injuries can impact results and performances no matter who the manager is.