Quality

[Comrade 86]

3 minutes ago, kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong said:

Not quite 86,you are always the happy clapper of the current set up,whatever it is (admirable loyalty mate,we have had the discussion previously).

And yes,I do think we are capable of being top six in 'this' championship year (not necessarily last year's) which is a weak one.

If cocu was to deploy our strikers effectively we wouldnt have to totally rely on our midfielders to get the goals as per last year 

Mount and Wilson both had barren patches last year don't forget,mount being dropped for several games as I recall.

 

Mate, we both know what's really bugging you most!  For clarity, some of his calls bemuse me too but to my mind there are two possible outcomes. One, he's revealed as a perennial tinkerman and in time it all goes tits up. Two, in time we see the method behind the apparent madness and things take shape.

And on your first point, I was pretty much the first to want old blockhead out the door! ?

On your final point, how rubbish were we when Mount was out injured? And that despite a far greater strength in depth overall.

[kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong]

4 minutes ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

Mate, we both know what's really bugging you most!  For clarity, some of his calls bemuse me too but to my mind there are two possible outcomes. One, he's revealed as a perennial tinkerman and in time it all goes tits up. Two, in time we see the method behind the apparent madness and things take shape.

And on your first point, I was pretty much the first to want old blockhead out the door! ?

On your final point, how rubbish were we when Mount was out injured? And that despite a far greater strength in depth overall.

You are saying I'm annoyed about Martin being left out and I am...without him in this current side we are even more lost than normal but what annoys me even more us the fact that all of our forwards are now impotent as a strike force with his tactics,strategy and constant tinkering.

Even Marriott,who can conjure a goal out of nothing now looks as though he may never score again.

I was a advocate of cocu and especially of giving him time but I'm finding his decisions baffling and we are,without a doubt,going backwards with the resulting drop in player confidence threatening to turn the situation into a downward spiral,home and away.

[Jourdan]

47 minutes ago, Nuwtfly said:

Rewriting history? I can only infer from this comment that you either a) didn't follow us back then, didn't see those games and therefore don't recall that period of time, or b) that you are engaging in some sort of Trumpian "alternative facts" argument with me. #VoteHilary ?

Do I think he has learnt from that experience? I would assume so. You learn from everything, right? The good and the bad.

Working in an academy does not command you the respect of "any player with a brain." Come on. 

Your argument just seems to be based around the idea that success in an academy means you'll be successful at first team level, when that just isn't always the case. There's no evidence to suggest that he would do well in this job. There is evidence to suggest he wouldn't, though. Half a season or so of it. 

My memory is perfectly in order, thank you. I think you are letting one or two poor performances cloud your usually sound judgement.

You have mentioned the Rotherham game in previous posts, for example. Losing a three-goal lead never looks good, but for a manager who apparently didn't have the respect of his players, isn't it odd that he was able to get a response from them in the games that followed?

We went on to win five of our next six games and in the end, we ended the season comfortably in 5th securing a place in the play-offs with three games to spare. He had a 50% win ratio, winning eight out of 16 league games and playing some good football along the way too. 4-0 at home v Hull under the lights being the standout.

We were just unfortunate that we saved our best run for April, Thorne got injured at a critical time, and we saved our worst performance of the season for the critical first leg of the play-offs. But yes I really don't see how you can say Wassall did a bad job. Average, decent, OK, you could argue. But bad? It's incredibly harsh. Unless you were expecting him to get us promoted? 

For me, the basis of my argument is that Wassall is a good fit because he understands what Mel wants and the style of play and the philosophy Mel is looking for. What he has implemented at the Academy is very encouraging. There are no guarantees that Wassall could do the same with the first team, but is it any more of a gamble than sticking with Cocu who actually seems massively out of touch?

At the end of the day, you only have to look at Chris Wilder at Sheffield United to see that success comes in all shapes, sizes and packages, and sometimes not the most obvious.

[Nuwtfly]

6 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

My memory is perfectly in order, thank you. I think you are letting one or two poor performances cloud your usually sound judgement.

You have mentioned the Rotherham game in previous posts, for example. Losing a three-goal lead never looks good, but for a manager who apparently didn't have the respect of his players, isn't it odd that he was able to get a response from them in the games that followed?

We went on to win five of our next six games and in the end, we ended the season comfortably in 5th securing a place in the play-offs with three games to spare. He had a 50% win ratio, winning eight out of 16 league games and playing some good football along the way too. 4-0 at home v Hull under the lights being the standout.

We were just unfortunate that we saved our best run for April, Thorne got injured at a critical time, and we saved our worst performance of the season for the critical first leg of the play-offs. But yes I really don't see how you can say Wassall did a bad job. Average, decent, OK, you could argue. But bad? It's incredibly harsh. Unless you were expecting him to get us promoted? 

For me, the basis of my argument is that Wassall is a good fit because he understands what Mel wants and the style of play and the philosophy Mel is looking for. What he has implemented at the Academy is very encouraging. There are no guarantees that Wassall could do the same with the first team, but is it any more of a gamble than sticking with Cocu who actually seems massively out of touch?

At the end of the day, you only have to look at Chris Wilder at Sheffield United to see that success comes in all shapes, sizes and packages, and sometimes not the most obvious.

I think we'll have to respectfully agree to disagree.

I'll give you that all the performances under Wassall weren't bad. For example: I wen't to the Bristol City away game when we won 3-2. We were very attacking, I'll give you that. But it was like watching a team that weren't given enough instructions to deal with the opposition, and instead were just told to get forward at all costs. Entertaining at times, OK. But not clever and certainly not sustainable in my view.

Best thing DW did that evening, in my opinion, was spend absolutely ages in the hour before kick-off signing things and having his picture taken with loads of young fans. I remember him really trying to win supporters over a lot of the time. Especially remember when he marched through all the celebrating Hull supporters on the pitch to clap the Derby fans. Some might say that was for the cameras. Maybe it was. Maybe it wasn't.

At the end of the day, if you're offering me two alternatives for the Derby Manager job: one is a former Barcelona midfielder who has won three league titles, a proven track record of bringing through top quality young players and has worked under the likes of Hiddink and Van Gaal, or the guy that has been in our academy for years and has already had one stab at the job, I'm almost always going to go for the former.

[Wolfie20]

3 hours ago, Jourdan said:

Wassall would have this team in the top 6.

Are you being serious?

[kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong]

7 minutes ago, Nuwtfly said:

I think we'll have to respectfully agree to disagree.

I'll give you that all the performances under Wassall weren't bad. For example: I wen't to the Bristol City away game when we won 3-2. We were very attacking, I'll give you that. But it was like watching a team that weren't given enough instructions to deal with the opposition, and instead were just told to get forward at all costs. Entertaining at times, OK. But not clever and certainly not sustainable in my view.

Best thing DW did that evening, in my opinion, was spend absolutely ages in the hour before kick-off signing things and having his picture taken with loads of young fans. I remember him really trying to win supporters over a lot of the time. Especially remember when he marched through all the celebrating Hull supporters on the pitch to clap the Derby fans. Some might say that was for the cameras. Maybe it was. Maybe it wasn't.

At the end of the day, if you're offering me two alternatives for the Derby Manager job: one is a former Barcelona midfielder who has won three league titles, a proven track record of bringing through top quality young players and has worked under the likes of Hiddink and Van Gaal, or the guy that has been in our academy for years and has already had one stab at the job, I'm almost always going to go for the former.

Ok...but for how long?

Having fantastic qualifications is wonderful but it's no substitute for getting the job done.

Up to now,cocu is not getting the job done or even looking as though he can.

It's what we see on the pitch in the gameplay and player performance that ultimately counts,not the guys cv on the desk.

[Nuwtfly]

2 minutes ago, kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong said:

Ok...but for how long?

Having fantastic qualifications is wonderful but it's no substitute for getting the job done.

Up to now,cocu is not getting the job done or even looking as though he can.

It's what we see on the pitch in the gameplay and player performance that ultimately counts,not the guys cv on the desk.

Personally? I'm willing to give him at least a year, providing we don't get relegated. At least two transfer windows to bring in the players who can play the way he wants. Not this mismatch of rubbish we've got at the minute. 

[Jourdan]

5 minutes ago, Nuwtfly said:

I think we'll have to respectfully agree to disagree.

I'll give you that all the performances under Wassall weren't bad. For example: I wen't to the Bristol City away game when we won 3-2. We were very attacking, I'll give you that. But it was like watching a team that weren't given enough instructions to deal with the opposition, and instead were just told to get forward at all costs. Entertaining at times, OK. But not clever and certainly not sustainable in my view.

Best thing DW did that evening, in my opinion, was spend absolutely ages in the hour before kick-off signing things and having his picture taken with loads of young fans. I remember him really trying to win supporters over a lot of the time. Especially remember when he marched through all the celebrating Hull supporters on the pitch to clap the Derby fans. Some might say that was for the cameras. Maybe it was. Maybe it wasn't.

At the end of the day, if you're offering me two alternatives for the Derby Manager job: one is a former Barcelona midfielder who has won three league titles, a proven track record of bringing through top quality young players and has worked under the likes of Hiddink and Van Gaal, or the guy that has been in our academy for years and has already had one stab at the job, I'm almost always going to go for the former.

It's interesting that you suggested Wassall and his 18 games in charge were enough for you to make your mind up and understand that he wasn't good enough for the job.

Yet Cocu's 20 games in and clearly doing much worse, and somehow he deserves backing to the hilt?

No back-to-back wins all season long, no away wins in the last nine attempts, no away goals in the last five games. It makes sorry reading.

What difference does Cocu's reputation make? Clearly none so far.

Strip away the glitz, glamour and the blinding bright lights of Cocu and his past and ask yourself, is Cocu - the current manager of a Championship football club - definitely the right man to take the club forward?

For what it's worth, I hope you're right and I can come back and say I was totally wrong to write Cocu off after 20 games.

[Jourdan]

26 minutes ago, Wolfie20 said:

Are you being serious?

Absolutely.

It's been widely acknowledged on here that the division is wide open this year.

Outside of Leeds and West Brom, is there anyone remotely consistent? Outside of Fulham, is there anyone with a lot more obvious quality than the rest?

With this squad and the right man overseeing it and encouraging the right style of play, playing to the team's strengths and crucially getting a bit of momentum, why couldn't we be 4th, 5th or 6th? If we win at home one week and are nailed on to lose away the next, how will that happen?

Those last three spots in the top six are there for the taking, and any one from around 12-13 teams could find themselves in the mix if they put a solid run together.

Blackburn were 18th in early November and some eight points off the top 6. They are on a run of four straight wins and suddenly they are 11th and they are only two points shy of 6th.

[europia]

18 minutes ago, Nuwtfly said:

Personally? I'm willing to give him at least a year, providing we don't get relegated. At least two transfer windows to bring in the players who can play the way he wants. Not this mismatch of rubbish we've got at the minute. 

Problem is managing in Championship and PL doesn't work like that. I don't remember any club acknowledging that the players as a collective are not fulfilling their contractual obligations in terms of performance. There are however many examples of managers being fired due to the players consistently under performing. Listening to Philips recent post match interviews, he does seem to be struggling to comprehend the underwhelming individual and team performances. I do actually think that Cocu is a good manager, who would prosper in the Dutch or Spanish top flight, but probably not in the EFL Championship.  The situation at DCFC has become a bit complex. The club is now rooted in 2nd tier football, adrift of the PL for something like 12 seasons and we are obviously in decline rather than the preferred term of 'transition'. Mr Morris has been a bit unfortunate in his previous 2 appointments as they chose to leave the club. The logic of the Cocu appointment is more akin to that of Paul Clement, but that never went to plan. At some point as the club searches for success, we may stumble across a  Jim Smith scenario, where it all comes together, somehow....

[IslandExile]

4 hours ago, Jourdan said:

Wassall would have this team in the top 6.

Last season with Mount, Tomori, Wilson and Keogh, we only just scraped into sixth.

I like Wassall and think the fans treated him unfairly but .... Come on.

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

14 minutes ago, IslandExile said:

Last season with Mount, Tomori, Wilson and Keogh, we only just scraped into sixth.

I like Wassall and think the fans treated him unfairly but .... Come on.

Add Johnson to the others mentioned and we have five players who would walk into our team. Our current lot simply need replacing. 

[Millenniumram]

Wassall wouldn’t have this team top 6. Let’s not go that far - neither the team, or him, are particulary great (not at first team level anyway). But a better manager would have this team top 10/12, and most importantly, playing better football. And that’s the key point. The results have been bank, but some of the football has been truly truly dire. The last two games have been Pearson level bad in attack. And that’s saying something.

[JfR]

I think while there's arguments to be had about the quality of the squad as a whole, most would have to agree that the squad is lacking in this area. Really, over those positions we have six senior players: Lawrence, Holmes, Dowell, Jozefzoon, Paterson and Bennett. I'm not counting Waghorn and Bogle here because they're being played out of position when they play there and would not be playing there if the other players were doing enough. I simply don't think you can create a trio of players from that selection that would be capable enough to be a first choice offensive midfield of a top Championship side. Lawrence is too inconsistent in his performances to build the attack around; Holmes has ability but doesn't have enough end product to put too much reliance upon him and he is currently having to play deeper to cover for Shinnie anyway; Dowell hasn't done enough; Jozefzoon is well out of the first team picture and has looked pretty lost when he has played; Paterson had a good spell of games but is also fairly inconsistent, is not our player and is getting recalled so we can't rely on him; Bennett's a squad player and injured anyway. Some of these would be fine in a squad with better players around them, as was demonstrated last year, but I think when it gets to January this will be the first place that will be looked at for improvements.

Put it another way, Mason Mount and Harry Wilson got 41 goals and assists between them last season in all competitions. Over the same period, the players mentioned earlier achieved the same, but managed that between six players and with those six players having played the equivalent of over 44 games worth of football more than the two loanees. That's the gulf in ability between what we had and what we have. It's gone from being by far our strongest area to probably our weakest.

[Ambitious]

I am incline to agree. I wouldn't say we're awful or really hammer the team, but we do lack ability in key areas. I just hope we can add some genuine quality to the team in the next two windows, because we really need it. 

[Duracell]

6 hours ago, sage said:

In terms of impact on performances and results, Martin is our only undroppable player.

Oh wait...

He's only undroppable on the assumption he can be fit enough to play 90 minutes 46 times a season, which is unrealistic given his recent seasons.

That's part of the problem. With everyone fit and available, we can pick a starting XI that can win every home game and make a decent fist of it away from home with confidence. I'd say good enough for just outside the top 6.

Every team has to deal with injuries and other variables, but we've been particularly hard hit this season. The disjointed pre-season on and off the field set us up for that.

With hindsight, our play-off hopes were dashed the moment Chelsea fannied us about and we decided to play a few pub teams a week later than everybody else as preparation. The fact we were still doing two different teams in the 90 in our one competitive friendly speaks volumes of that.

The only player who is consistently available and fit enough to be picked is Tom Lawrence, when he's not suspended or driving into his team-mates. Possibly Waghorn too. Hardly the recipe for a cohesive plan and system for Cocu is it?

[LeedsCityRam]

9 hours ago, kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong said:

Have to agree with that...we have more than enough quality for a too six place, especially in this year's championship.

It's the managing and coaching of the team that's the issue.

Absolute rubbish. 

Last year we had 3 players in our side, now all Prem starters...2 England squad members & a Wales starter. We were still pretty grim...Blackburn away in March/April we were appalling & only Boro's & Bristol's collapse let us into the top 6.

They've now gone & we're left with the rest PLUS a captain and vital defender now sacked for off the field conduct.

More than enough quality for top 6? Laughable.

[CornwallRam]

8 hours ago, Jourdan said:

I thought Wassall should have got the job in the summer, so we could hit the ground running.

At the end of the day, people are talking about Cocu being a long term appointment, implementing youth, and having a vision.

Why couldn't the man who has worked in English football all of his career, knows the club inside out, and has actually overseen the development of our Academy achieve exactly that?

Wassall is lucky to be in a job at all. He's had a decade in charge of a youth set up that is more highly resourced than any in England outside the big 6. In that time we've produced 3 regular first team starters, two of whom were at the club when Wassall joined and the other was signed as a 16 year old. 

When you look at the irritating success of the Forest youth set up, with a fraction of our resources,  you really have wonder where Mel's millions have gone.

I know that the junior teams are doing well enough, but ultimately the youth set can only be judged on its effectiveness in producing talent to either sell or play for the first team. 

Assuming that Wassall's main duties are football related, rather than operational, he's been an abject failure. 

[kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong]

4 hours ago, LeedsCityRam said:

Absolute rubbish. 

Last year we had 3 players in our side, now all Prem starters...2 England squad members & a Wales starter. We were still pretty grim...Blackburn away in March/April we were appalling & only Boro's & Bristol's collapse let us into the top 6.

They've now gone & we're left with the rest PLUS a captain and vital defender now sacked for off the field conduct.

More than enough quality for top 6? Laughable.

The only drivel is from defeatest fans who have decided that we cannot win a game without mason mount in the side.

Whilst we have a weakened midfield there is no reason to not expect decent football from the players we have available.....we are far,far from the strongest side in the division this year but we are far from the weakest either and in my opinion and with good coaching and management,we should be doing far better than we are.

Were you at the Derby game against Preston?...in that game we played better than I have seen for the past few seasons...slick,one touch football that was a joy to behold.With that example of how we can play,when managed properly,we are capable of being top six easily.

Cocu got the balance and mix right finally but then failed to maintain it,dabbled with the set up again and has returned us back to step 1 again,looking totally lost and confused on the field.

 

[LeedsCityRam]

12 minutes ago, kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong said:

The only drivel is from defeatest fans who have decided that we cannot win a game without mason mount in the side.

Whilst we have a weakened midfield there is no reason to not expect decent football from the players we have available.....we are far,far from the strongest side in the division this year but we are far from the weakest either and in my opinion and with good coaching and management,we should be doing far better than we are.

Were you at the Derby game against Preston?...in that game we played better than I have seen for the past few seasons...slick,one touch football that was a joy to behold.With that example of how we can play,when managed properly,we are capable of being top six easily.

Cocu got the balance and mix right finally but then failed to maintain it,dabbled with the set up again and has returned us back to step 1 again,looking totally lost and confused on the field.

 

When managed properly? Good grief. Preston are a very over-rated side who wont finish top 6. Fulham away is a totally different proposition hence why he changed it. The idea that we're going to rock up & impose our style on this division with this squad is just naive.

Is it Cocu's fault that defenders arent doing the basics? That the midfield isnt strong enough to dominate games? Your expectations are far too high of this squad & this isnt a short term fix. The players arent confused, they're just not good enough.