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Diamonds are forever, or at least right now??


ramsbottom

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I think we can all agree that despite the epic **ithousery on Saturday afternoon, the result threw up yet more questions for Cocu in relation to his squad than answers.  The most pressing of all is how to get the most out the players he has at his disposal.  We're struggling to play out from the back, the midfield is cumbersome and lacks creativity, our wingers/inside forwards are incapable of beating a man and putting in a meaningful cross, and Marriott is feeding off scraps.

How does he go about solving it?  I wonder if he's considered a diamond in midfield?  We all know that it's only really our full backs who provide any decent width so why is he persisting with ineffective wingers?  Take em off the board full stop.  That way, we can see if Lawrence really is a No 10, or could the born again Martin play in there?  Marriott would also get the foil he so desperately needs.

I think something like this...

--------------------------hamer

Bogle---------Keogh------------Clarke--------Lowe

--------------------------Bealik

---------------Holmes-----------Huddlestone/Shinnie

---------------------Lawrence/Martin/Rooney

---------------Marriott-----------Waghorn/Martin

... could work.

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7 minutes ago, ramsbottom said:

I think we can all agree that despite the epic **ithousery on Saturday afternoon, the result threw up yet more questions for Cocu in relation to his squad than answers.  The most pressing of all is how to get the most out the players he has at his disposal.  We're struggling to play out from the back, the midfield is cumbersome and lacks creativity, our wingers/inside forwards are incapable of beating a man and putting in a meaningful cross, and Marriott is feeding off scraps.

How does he go about solving it?  I wonder if he's considered a diamond in midfield?  We all know that it's only really our full backs who provide any decent width so why is he persisting with ineffective wingers?  Take em off the board full stop.  That way, we can see if Lawrence really is a No 10, or could the born again Martin play in there?  Marriott would also get the foil he so desperately needs.

I think something like this...

--------------------------hamer

Bogle---------Keogh------------Clarke--------Lowe

--------------------------Bealik

---------------Holmes-----------Huddlestone/Shinnie

---------------------Lawrence/Martin/Rooney

---------------Marriott-----------Waghorn/Martin

... could work.

15 on the pitch should balance up the games.

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Just posted the same thing about playing the diamond in another thread. None of our wide players are actually wide players other than Zoon - they all want to move central and Zoon can't cross the ball. Lawrence and Waghorn always move central when they play on the wings, so may as well start them in the middle.

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19 minutes ago, ramsbottom said:

 I wonder if he's considered a diamond in midfield?  We all know that it's only really our full backs who provide any decent width so why is he persisting with ineffective wingers?  

Beacuse Bogle has been injured. Simple as that. 

You couldn't possibly play a diamond without him. It would be a disaster. 

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9 minutes ago, therealhantsram said:

Beacuse Bogle has been injured. Simple as that. 

You couldn't possibly play a diamond without him. It would be a disaster. 

I was gonna add that as a caveat.  Once he's fit again, it could potentially solve a lot of problems.

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34 minutes ago, ramsbottom said:

I was gonna add that as a caveat.  Once he's fit again, it could potentially solve a lot of problems.

FWIW, I don't think we'll see Cocu play a diamond, but I do think it likely he could play more 3-5-2 formation when Bogle is back. 

He has tried that a couple of times already and there's only a gnat's whisker between the two formations. 

The key difference being that with Bielik sitting that bit deeper it helps us playing out from the back. 

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2 hours ago, ramsbottom said:

I think we can all agree that despite the epic **ithousery on Saturday afternoon, the result threw up yet more questions for Cocu in relation to his squad than answers.  The most pressing of all is how to get the most out the players he has at his disposal.  We're struggling to play out from the back, the midfield is cumbersome and lacks creativity, our wingers/inside forwards are incapable of beating a man and putting in a meaningful cross, and Marriott is feeding off scraps.

How does he go about solving it?  I wonder if he's considered a diamond in midfield?  We all know that it's only really our full backs who provide any decent width so why is he persisting with ineffective wingers?  Take em off the board full stop.  That way, we can see if Lawrence really is a No 10, or could the born again Martin play in there?  Marriott would also get the foil he so desperately needs.

I think something like this...

--------------------------hamer

Bogle---------Keogh------------Clarke--------Lowe

--------------------------Bealik

---------------Holmes-----------Huddlestone/Shinnie

---------------------Lawrence/Martin/Rooney

---------------Marriott-----------Waghorn/Martin

... could work.

Like it, but would change to this:

--------------------------Roos

Bogle---------Keogh------------Clarke--------Malone

--------------------------Beilik/ Huddlestone

---------------Holmes-----------Knight

---------------------Lawrence/Martin

---------------Marriott-----------Waghorn/Martin

 

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Think there’s definitely a legit point to be had here. Our wide options are either ducking useless, or they’re not really proper wide men in the first place. There’s probably not many teams with worse options out wide than is in the league, so we’re almost carrying players at times at the minute. Until we can get some proper quality in, it probably is gonna help build some short term form if we switch formation so there’s less emphasis on wingers. We’ve certainly gotta do something because we look worse than awful at the moment, and we can’t carry on how we are unless we want a trip to Shrewsbury next year. 

So yeah, I reckon a diamond formation probably would be suitable for us, and would allow us to get more of our strikers (who are one of our strengths) on the field. I’d probably go something like this though:

Hamer

Bogle Keogh Buchanan Lowe

Bielik 

Knight Holmes

Lawrence 

Marriott Martin

With Waghorn obviously for Martin if he doesn’t work out to have returned to form. As I’ve said in other threads, Clarke can not be playing right now, and I don’t think either Huddlestone or shinnie will work in that box to box role- knight is the only player in our squad with that bite to be able to play there imo. I’d actually be tempted temporarily to play Waghorn as well instead of Lawrence, pushing Marriott into the 10 role briefly until we can recover a bit of form and confidence as when we’re struggling, Lawrence tends to vanish. When we’re playing better however, I think he’ll be far more suited to that free role than his wide left position, and I think we’ll get the best out of the obvious talent In his locker. Long term of course, you’d probably see Rooney In that Martin role, or perhaps the Lawrence one.

Trouble is, a narrow diamond like that isn’t without its problems, which is why it’s not used too often. It puts a huge deal of pressure on the fullbacks in Lowe and bogle to provide all the width, get up and down the pitch, and contribute going forward and defensively. Luckily, I think Lowe and bogle could, if we get them playing to potential, be one of our biggest strengths. I reckon regardless of formation we need to be making those two like our Robertson and TAA, given our lack of creativity elsewhere, so I reckon they’re capable of working in a diamond. Particularly when knight and Holmes look capable of drifting out wide when necessary. Definitely not one for the long term, but for now it could be worth a go- or perhaps a three at the back could be an option.

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4 hours ago, therealhantsram said:

FWIW, I don't think we'll see Cocu play a diamond, but I do think it likely he could play more 3-5-2 formation when Bogle is back. 

He has tried that a couple of times already and there's only a gnat's whisker between the two formations. 

The key difference being that with Bielik sitting that bit deeper it helps us playing out from the back. 

I think a diamond could work but 3_5_2 is more likely the way Cocu will go.

Bogle and Lowe/Malone could suit that and it'd get us playing a second near Marriott which seems to be the best way to get him playing where he's most lethal.

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                                                          Roos/Hammer

                                        Keogh              Bielik            Clark

                    Bogle                                                                               Lowe

                                                Holmes              Knight

                                                          Lawence

                                         Marriott                   Martin

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You can come up with every permutation physically possible with the squad of players we have at present and you still get the same answer they are not good enough and the three loanees from last season have not been replaced properly

Lets just hope come May there are three worse teams than us,having watched the Brentford and Leeds games i do despair and the fact we have not won at home yet is worrying

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13 minutes ago, ramboy63 said:

You can come up with every permutation physically possible with the squad of players we have at present and you still get the same answer they are not good enough and the three loanees from last season have not been replaced properly

Lets just hope come May there are three worse teams than us,having watched the Brentford and Leeds games i do despair and the fact we have not won at home yet is worrying

Of course we haven't replaced those loan players. How many championship clubs have had 3 loan players who have all gone on the next season to be regular starters for their club? This is the season we would have had without them, they papered over all the cracks. The chances of replacing all 3 with similar quality was zero. Clarke so far does not look as promised and Dowell has offered little. Both come with good reputations.

So few of our signings for a long while have actually been suitable players. We still have a mixture that don't really suit one way of playing. At some point a midtable season was going to happen as managers just delayed the squad building process, hindered by our inept scouting. And unfortunately for us one of our most talented players Lawrence may not turn up for 7 in 10 games.

I can't help but feel Cocu has been dealt a crap hand here. Yes there is talent but how many fit the same system? Potential long hard season but I think as long as we stick with it, we will be better placed for it next season.

As for the diamond suggestion, probably worth a go, although I reckon 3-5-2 may be the best bet.

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1 hour ago, ramboy63 said:

You can come up with every permutation physically possible with the squad of players we have at present and you still get the same answer they are not good enough and the three loanees from last season have not been replaced properly

Lets just hope come May there are three worse teams than us,having watched the Brentford and Leeds games i do despair and the fact we have not won at home yet is worrying

Waghorn missing two penalties and an easy chance against Cardiff didn’t help our cause but it’s Cocu who gets the grief from some fans!

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Diamond works when you've got fullbacks who arc comfortable staying wide and a holding midfielder with the pace and patience to drop in defense when the fullbacks are up the pitch. Plus the top of the diamond (ie Lawrence/knight/Paterson role) needs 90 minutes of hard graft. 

If we had a fully fit Bogle and Lowe, plus Bielik having the patience to not wander up the pitch it might work. Right now Bielik seems to eager to push up and Huddlestone is stranded from pace. Lowe has to cut in when attacking from being left footed and Malone seems to cut in as much as stay wide. 

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19 minutes ago, nogbad van 50 said:

Waghorn missing two penalties and an easy chance against Cardiff didn’t help our cause but it’s Cocu who gets the grief from some fans!

The only thing I’d say to that apart from largely agreeing is that both Waggy’s penalties were saved not missed. 

It will balance out. Yes, Mount was exceptional and Wilson was good at set pieces but I am comfortable with Clarke. He is young and  I can see a very good footballer there. Bielik too, but when we lose 2 dynamite players at the sharp end it presents problems. 

In the long run though I am not too down. We are missing some width and some AM talent but Holmes is up and running now, Bogle to come back, Lowe to move to his preferred side. Lawrence is due his 1-4 magic game, CM is back as an option. There are reasons to be positive 

 

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1 hour ago, nogbad van 50 said:

Waghorn missing two penalties and an easy chance against Cardiff didn’t help our cause but it’s Cocu who gets the grief from some fans!

Never mentioned Cocu and if we cant score penalties once there given even when they clearly wasnt (West Brom) confirms my previous message players not good enough

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On 24/09/2019 at 19:42, ramboy63 said:

Never mentioned Cocu and if we cant score penalties once there given even when they clearly wasnt (West Brom) confirms my previous message players not good enough

The Cocu comment wasn’t directed specifically towards you but towards the “fans” whose comments I see regularly on other social media.I don’t think you’re the only person who’s aware of the overall lack of ability in the squad and you don’t need to be an Einstein to realise that losing Tomori,Mount and Wilson would have a massive detrimental effect on us.My main concern is with what I consider to be Lampard’s mediocre recruitment with the likes of Jozefzoon,Malone,Evans and Shinnie and that it’ll take Cocu and his staff some time,probably at least two transfer windows,to bring in the additional quality we require.We could do with some managerial stability ,for a change, and some patience from our long-suffering supporters.

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8 hours ago, nogbad van 50 said:

The Cocu comment wasn’t directed specifically towards you but towards the “fans” whose comments I see regularly on other social media.I don’t think you’re the only person who’s aware of the overall lack of ability in the squad and you don’t need to be an Einstein to realise that losing Tomori,Mount and Wilson would have a massive detrimental effect on us.My main concern is with what I consider to be Lampard’s mediocre recruitment with the likes of Jozefzoon,Malone,Evans and Shinnie and that it’ll take Cocu and his staff some time,probably at least two transfer windows,to bring in the additional quality we require.We could do with some managerial stability ,for a change, and some patience from our long-suffering supporters.

Yes i have to agree with you although we all know in this game patience is hard to swallow given we have been in and around the play offs for a few years and keep hearing the word transition drives me mad weve been in transition since we got relegated from the Prem.

For me next 6 games are key as you will then be able to see what we have in terms of quality in the side

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