Just a small tear in my eye for that Chris Martin sub

[angieram]

28 minutes ago, Sparkle said:

I might have missed it but I haven’t seen anybody play Marriott through on goal yet this season and he has been looking for scraps and opposition mistakes which haven’t been made yet 

Exactly.  So why not try an option that might rectify that? 

I was a bit disappointed that the substitution was Marriott for Martin, as for me Marriott is the player who would most benefit from Martin's craft.

[S8TY]

7 hours ago, RoyMac5 said:

See previous posts for 'how you judged Martin' - you got short term memory loss?

I hope Waghorn does score 15+ goals this season. Waghorn's managed to get in some good positions but not taken as many of the chances as say Marriott might have done. I was hardly slating Waghorn, just pointing out there's need for competition and undoubtedly Martin will provide it this season if he stays fit! 

No memory loss here fella...lol ...but agree competition is good but that’s not quite how you came across in your post 

[S8TY]

12 hours ago, rynny said:

I didn't realise that you didn't want the parts where you judged him pointing out

apology accepted

[Adslegend]

23 hours ago, europia said:

If Martin is a better option than Waghorn, the manager will no doubt acknowledge this and select accordingly.  

Waghorn though is capable of playing as a winger (although often went missing from the right wing on Friday). Martin and Marriott playing together would require a different system (Personally I hope Cocu tries to get them playing together). I feel like those two are our most "intelligent" footballers. Like on Friday there was a move where Martin tried a clever flick where Waghorn was dead to it. I feel like Marriott would've been alive to it. 

Martin can make things happen... He's arguably the one whose ability we can't replace. He's such an intelligent player in the final third... 

[S8TY]

11 hours ago, angieram said:

Exactly.  So why not try an option that might rectify that? 

I was a bit disappointed that the substitution was Marriott for Martin, as for me Marriott is the player who would most benefit from Martin's craft.

Yes why not try Martin lets see if it works 

I just wish I could under perform for a few years and yet still be adored in my job......why can fans just not see the facts....Chris Martin has not been in the first team picture for ages by several managers and what evidence is there to suggest he'll get back to the player he was ????

Its literally just sentiment and although I cheered when he came on the other night i do have serious doubts he is the answer ....Billy Sharp was probably one of the most effective centre forwards last season and scored lots of goals....If we are to be a top 6 contender we need goals and I don't see Martin delivering them on a regular basis but fair play to Cocu for giving him a chance.....

It appears that if anyone should dare to doubt Martin they are lambasted and seen as anti Martin or are told they are judging?? who isn't really judging all the time ?? everyone is always getting judged ?? so what if anyone is deemed to be judging...everyone does it every day of there lives I'd also say the same if it were any player that had been at our club and not played and not hit the heights of a few seasons ago...George Thorne is another example yes he's had injuries blah blah but we are not a charity...we need players performing and competing and being fit and ready to play....football is a tough sport and can be cruel...sentiment will not get us to where we want to go...

For the record before I get loads of flak on here I want Martin to prove doubters wrong including myself and come back and prove his worth and contribute and score goals but i just don't see it

[Alph]

I don't give a feck how Martin did last season or the season before or anything else.

I have seen Kieran Dowell lose the ball by being a complete wimp. I've seen him pick the ball up in areas that a creative player is supposed to want the ball and the play like he's a defender strayed too far

I've seen Lawrence dribble until he absolutely can't take another step without losing the ball and then 'pass' to somebody who is now marked. I see him do it over and over and over and over until the point I don't see the promise in his dribbling but the utter rubbish in when the ball leaves him.

I've seen Waghorn frequently have a first touch worse than Connor Sammon. We are talking 3 or 4 touches in the wrong direction to do what everyone else does in 1

I've seen Jozefzoon... wait, no I haven't because he's hiding. 

So maybe Chris Martin isn't the Derby Messi. Maybe he's not our saviour. But I just fail to see how having some Bamford up front that can control and pass a ball won't benefit us

I mean by all means if you actually believe that Lawrence pretending to be Ronaldo, Waghorn pretending to be Sammon, Jozefzoon pretending to be...there? Dowell pretending to be Ben Davies, Paterson pretending to be Stephen Pearson are all on the verge of something good then fair enough. 

Let's worry about how many goals Martin isn't scoring when we are at a stage where we actually have forwards who understand the idea of the fecking game. Right now our best attackers are Lowe, Malone, Keogh and Bielik. 

I mean ffs. Not only do I refuse to rule out Martin but i still think Chris Porter could do a job. I'd take Adam fecking Rooney right now. 

I just can't cope watching Lawrence beat 30 defenders and then do something utterly poo 99 times in 100. I can't watch Dowell look worse than Paul Green. 

We are all looking at Duane Holmes now to save our sanity and feed the ball through to Marriott. Unless Waghorn manages to trap the ball it looks like a bunch of guys who are looking for imaginative ways to lose possession and expose that useless DM statue

[angieram]

10 hours ago, Saity said:

Yes why not try Martin lets see if it works 

I just wish I could under perform for a few years and yet still be adored in my job......why can fans just not see the facts....Chris Martin has not been in the first team picture for ages by several managers and what evidence is there to suggest he'll get back to the player he was ????

Its literally just sentiment and although I cheered when he came on the other night i do have serious doubts he is the answer ....Billy Sharp was probably one of the most effective centre forwards last season and scored lots of goals....If we are to be a top 6 contender we need goals and I don't see Martin delivering them on a regular basis but fair play to Cocu for giving him a chance.....

It appears that if anyone should dare to doubt Martin they are lambasted and seen as anti Martin or are told they are judging?? who isn't really judging all the time ?? everyone is always getting judged ?? so what if anyone is deemed to be judging...everyone does it every day of there lives I'd also say the same if it were any player that had been at our club and not played and not hit the heights of a few seasons ago...George Thorne is another example yes he's had injuries blah blah but we are not a charity...we need players performing and competing and being fit and ready to play....football is a tough sport and can be cruel...sentiment will not get us to where we want to go...

For the record before I get loads of flak on here I want Martin to prove doubters wrong including myself and come back and prove his worth and contribute and score goals but i just don't see it

I think it's too simplistic to measure Martin's performances only in terms of goals scored because his game is about so much more than that.

At the moment I don’t see anyone in the Derby side that is regularly creating chances for other players and I still firmly believe that given a real opportunity (not six minutes here and there) that Chris Martin can do that. 

I don’t necessarily think he's a long term solution but we need to try something different to what we have done so far this season and he is an option. 

[Parsnip]

12 hours ago, Saity said:

I just wish I could under perform for a few years and yet still be adored in my job......why can fans just not see the facts....Chris Martin has not been in the first team picture for ages by several managers

A few years is stretching it a bit. Two and a half years ago he was having a brilliant season for Fulham while Mac2 and Jokanovic were fighting over him. 

Marriott, Waghorn, Martin & Bizzle looks like a healthy set of strikers to me.

[cheron85]

12 hours ago, Adslegend said:

Like on Friday there was a move where Martin tried a clever flick where Waghorn was dead to it.

That's a little harsh - From interviews and the way he plays I'd say Waggers is a smart player

I imagine it was more to do with him being dead on his feet by that point - He ran himself into the ground and he and Lawrence were kicked up in the air about every 5 mins by the Cardiff defenders

12 hours ago, Saity said:

I just wish I could under perform for a few years and yet still be adored in my job......why can fans just not see the facts....Chris Martin has not been in the first team picture for ages by several managers and what evidence is there to suggest he'll get back to the player he was ????

You're rather taken with hyperbole aren't you? We're only a few games into the season but the key problem we seem to have is scoring goals - We've tried several combinations of our 'newer' forwards so what's wrong with trying out Martin too?

And you harp on about others being obsessed with Martin's past yet you keep talking about the last few years

The ONLY thing that is relevant here is:

9 hours ago, Alpha said:

I don't give a feck how Martin did last season or the season before or anything else.

This season, this manager, this team - Is all that matters - If Cocu thinks a player might be useful then lets use him

[AdamRam]

Martin isn’t the answer, sentiment aside he hasn't got the attributes required for the modern game. He needs a club that are going to build a team around him, this is why he also wasn’t a regular prior to coming to us on a free. 

As a club we need to move on, his contract runs out at the end of the season, and it will be best for all parties for him to move on.

That said, id be over the moon to be proved wrong, if he came into the team and adapted to the role asked of him, just my opinion though, that he isn’t the short, medium or long term answer. 

[TigerTedd]

4 hours ago, angieram said:

I think it's too simplistic to measure Martin's performances only in terms of goals scored because his game is about so much more than that.

At the moment I don’t see anyone in the Derby side that is regularly creating chances for other players and I still firmly believe that given a real opportunity (not six minutes here and there) that Chris Martin can do that. 

I don’t necessarily think he's a long term solution but we need to try something different to what we have done so far this season and he is an option. 

What I always loved about Martin was not how many goals he scored. I was always amazed he scored so many, vos he spent most of his time creating for others. You can get the Bent’s of this world, who will score you 20+ goals, but be a passenger for the rest of the game. A true poacher. But Martin is a creator. A joy to watch when he was flicking cheeky back heels to an onrushing Bryson. Not to mention the freekicks he won to change the tempo, and relive pressure, and the hold up play to bring others into the attack. 

Quite similar to Rooney actually. A creator who happens to score a boat load of goals as well. 

[Alph]

17 minutes ago, AdamRam said:

Martin isn’t the answer, sentiment aside he hasn't got the attributes required for the modern game. He needs a club that are going to build a team around him, this is why he also wasn’t a regular prior to coming to us on a free. 

As a club we need to move on, his contract runs out at the end of the season, and it will be best for all parties for him to move on.

That said, id be over the moon to be proved wrong, if he came into the team and adapted to the role asked of him, just my opinion though, that he isn’t the short, medium or long term answer. 

The game hasn't changed in 3 years. 

I would agree he's looking for a very specific role that not many teams require. 

I see a lot of people saying he's the past and we need to move on. I'm ok with that if the future is better players. If we are moving on to Dowell and Lawrence, Jozefzoon and Paterson and Waghorn then maybe the past is better in some situations than the present

Forget goal scoring for a sec. To score a goal you have to have the ball and put in a place you can score from

The ball doesn't do anything when it gets to Dowell or Jozefzoon at best it goes back to safety. When it gets to Lawrence it goes for a run but ultimately ends up back with an opponent. Too often it goes to Waghorn and starts bouncing around all confused. 

Martin can play. He may not be the future, he may not be the answer but sticking with this bunch in current form puts too much creative pressure on the back 6. 

Them losing the ball so stupidly means Huddlesetinstone gets exposed

I wasn't impressed when we signed Kuqi. But he brought others into the game so much more than the pacey and once promising Luke Moore (who was worse than Leon Best, Blackman etc) 

I mean I thought Craig Bryson was way past being of any use. Now I've seen Dowell play I'm not so sure. 

I even miss Bradley Johnson!! God I hated his passing but a defensive midfielder with legs? Yes please! 

Cocu has to find a way to create some complimentary partnerships. The communication and team work is awful at times. The individual players aren't all that bad but there's not much sign of partnerships at the front end. 

I know it was only a friendly against nobodies but when Martin and Marriott played together in pre season their was some nice link ups. Surely worth exploring. 

[ThePrisoner]

3 minutes ago, Alpha said:

even miss Bradley Johnson!! God I hated his passing but a defensive midfielder with legs? Yes please! 

He did make some good passes towards the end of his time here! I think we miss Bradley more than we actually realise and acknowledge.

[BondJovi]

1 minute ago, ThePrisoner said:

He did make some good passes towards the end of his time here! I think we miss Bradley more than we actually realise and acknowledge.

I am certain we do. He also had a knack of making something happen. I would have been happy with him, Bielik and Holmes as a midfield 3.. 

[AdamRam]

33 minutes ago, Alpha said:

The game hasn't changed in 3 years. 

 

It has for me, it’s become more intense and you need you forwards to be mobile, you need to press from the front now, the forwards need to be flexible etc. We could adapt to accommodate Martin, but as I said it would be a backward step imo, the days of a target man in the mould of CM are gone.

im not arguing that it’s not working at the mo, and yes Kuqi was a good signing, however he would also struggle in today’s game. It’s not that he is the past, Bryson, Johnson aren’t here, had they been I’d probably agree that they are worth a try.

As I said, I’d be more than happy to be proved wrong, but I just can’t see it.

 

[RoyMac5]

42 minutes ago, AdamRam said:

It has for me, it’s become more intense and you need you forwards to be mobile, you need to press from the front now, the forwards need to be flexible etc. We could adapt to accommodate Martin, but as I said it would be a backward step imo, the days of a target man in the mould of CM are gone.

I didn't realise he could only play that way...silly me I've not looked at his career in any detail, nor considered his footballing ability!

More intense you say - I've not noticed us trying to play like that. But if you watched the two U23 games Martin played in then you'd have seen him close down from the front. There wasn't a lot of help from the rest of midfield mind, so a bit pointless mostly. Bit like how you're suggesting the 1st team play when they don't.

[AdamRam]

8 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

I didn't realise he could only play that way...silly me I've not looked at his career in any detail, nor considered his footballing ability!

More intense you say - I've not noticed us trying to play like that. But if you watched the two U23 games Martin played in then you'd have seen him close down from the front. There wasn't a lot of help from the rest of midfield mind, so a bit pointless mostly. Bit like how you're suggesting the 1st team play when they don't.

Not like you to jump on the attack whenever someone makes a comment you don’t agree with ?

I can only go on the games I have watched Martin play, if you say he has suddenly become  a more mobile version of what he used to be, I can only take your word for it, however previously he was more in the Giourd (however you spell it) than a T.Abraham.

And im suggesting the way the first team are trying to play, I didn’t say that they are doing that, for me in the second half on Friday you could we them trying to do this more especially now Holmes is fit. 

 

[RoyMac5]

48 minutes ago, AdamRam said:

Not like you to jump on the attack whenever someone makes a comment you don’t agree with ?

 

Errr, nor you? I disagree with your assessment, if you see that as an attack fair enough.

[Dimmu]

I think we will see lot's of Martin this season and for a good reason. If we stick with the current tactics, IMO he is our best option as sole striker. I don't doubt this at all, he just needs a chance (and fitness) to prove it.

On paper Waggy, Marriott and Martin looks like great trio and full of options but when you think how strict our tactics are going forward, it ain't that good. Marriott definitely need partner and so does Waggy. Latters first touch, unfortunately, lets him down.

[cannable]

4 hours ago, AdamRam said:

It has for me, it’s become more intense and you need you forwards to be mobile, you need to press from the front now, the forwards need to be flexible etc. We could adapt to accommodate Martin, but as I said it would be a backward step imo, the days of a target man in the mould of CM are gone.

im not arguing that it’s not working at the mo, and yes Kuqi was a good signing, however he would also struggle in today’s game. It’s not that he is the past, Bryson, Johnson aren’t here, had they been I’d probably agree that they are worth a try.

As I said, I’d be more than happy to be proved wrong, but I just can’t see it.

 

That’s just a sweeping generalisation of football though. Pressing is only popular because passing and possession was popular before it. 

Burnley were one of the first teams to catch on to pressing and they’ve consistently had a target man!