The Politics Thread 2019

[BaaLocks]

12 minutes ago, 86 points said:

we are all, bar the very 'fortunsye' few, being put to the sword in one way or t'other.

Indeed, if you find anyone - from any side of the spectrum - happy with the deal we eventually end up with then you will be a better man than I could ever claim to be.

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

1 minute ago, 86 points said:

Don't think that's the case at all. Frankly, I've lost count of the slurs chucked my way for voting remain so let's please not play the victim card here as we are all, bar the very 'fortunsye' few, being put to the sword in one way or t'other.

 I wouldn't go as far as to say i'm a victim ,  but I have suffered grief at work and indeed from a couple of family member's over this issue .  It may of course  be the other way around depending on where someone works,  area they live etc.   Looking at these threads over the last couple of year's they do degenerate into some line of -look at these Robinson loving Trumpites who are going to destroy us - there can't be over 17 million of them .   I'm sure there are just as many millionaire artists who grow there own in Primrose Hill who voted to remain if we are going down the stereo type route.

 

[BaaLocks]

6 minutes ago, maxjam said:

I'd be happy for a second vote if the choice was Leave/Remain with a follow up question for only those that voted leave to the first question as to whether you want Mays deal or no deal.  Thats another chance to vote remain and a decisive direction if its leave again, anything else would inevitably water down the results and split the leave vote.

At the very least you will get a second referendum in about three years time - it's called a general election.

It will effectively become the choice to voice opinion that many are asking for. I do understand the point that some elements of the leave campaign feel that a second referendum is just chance to ask the question again until they get the answer they want. But no matter how fervent your view is on leave you cannot deny that there is not a single united view on what leave looks like. So the no deal camp are just as entitled to suggest that they have not been heard as the customs union soft Brexit as the remainers. Like it or not, and there is no debate on this point, this is not a binary discussion - we are not saying we either leave or stay but instead we are saying 'this is how we leave' and that is not what the first vote was around.

And that comes from someone who doesn't want a second referendum - I don't want it as I think it would promote even stronger division and extremism in our already challenged nation. These are potentially dangerous times - I know I might sound a bit alarmist but these things can easily get out of control and once they do we might not be able to stop them. 

[maxjam]

1 minute ago, BaaLocks said:

At the very least you will get a second referendum in about three years time - it's called a general election.

It will effectively become the choice to voice opinion that many are asking for. I do understand the point that some elements of the leave campaign feel that a second referendum is just chance to ask the question again until they get the answer they want. But no matter how fervent your view is on leave you cannot deny that there is not a single united view on what leave looks like. So the no deal camp are just as entitled to suggest that they have not been heard as the customs union soft Brexit as the remainers. Like it or not, and there is no debate on this point, this is not a binary discussion - we are not saying we either leave or stay but instead we are saying 'this is how we leave' and that is not what the first vote was around.

And that comes from someone who doesn't want a second referendum - I don't want it as I think it would promote even stronger division and extremism in our already challenged nation. These are potentially dangerous times - I know I might sound a bit alarmist but these things can easily get out of control and once they do we might not be able to stop them. 

Yeah I don't particularly want a second referendum I voted leave and want my vote honoured.  Given that parliament has had 2-3 years to sort this out and the only options are remain, no deal or Mays deal to give everyone a second chance I'd be happy to vote on that in the hope that it would bring resolution to the matter as we'd know exactly what option we were voting for this time.

I don't see what another extension will achieve.  Parliament seems committed to remove no deal and May isn't budging from her deal.  Parliament is also around 70% remain.  If I was cynical (and I am ?) I'd be inclined to think its all a sham, they have no intention of leaving and they are simply figuring out a way for us to remain in the EU with our (or should that be their) 2 party political system still intact.

[Comrade 86]

25 minutes ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

 I wouldn't go as far as to say i'm a victim ,  but I have suffered grief at work and indeed from a couple of family member's over this issue .  It may of course  be the other way around depending on where someone works,  area they live etc.   Looking at these threads over the last couple of year's they do degenerate into some line of -look at these Robinson loving Trumpites who are going to destroy us - there can't be over 17 million of them .   I'm sure there are just as many millionaire artists who grow there own in Primrose Hill who voted to remain if we are going down the stereo type route.

 

Mate it was a general comment. Sorry! Not phrased terribly well now I've re-read it. I'm not in any way singling you out. Also, I think much of it is merely gallows humour and not really intended to demean or offend.

The point I was trying rather clumsily to make is that the shizzle is flying everywhere not just in one direction. In truth, I'm fed up with the over-sensitivity of ALL parties. We've all over-generalised at some point after all. 

Also, I think this thread has been way more civilised than those of yore. That's not to excuse anyone (myself included) who has pushed the boundaries, just to say it's a long way from the outright slanging matches of the old Brexit thread. Long may it last!

[GboroRam]

1 hour ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

I see we are reverting back to the everyone who want's to leave is a thick racist thread .   If you have a thought out and considered opinion regarding a leave vote,  don't put it on here as you will be shouted down as a gammon faced neo Nazi. 

It works both ways - apparently I'm a traitor to my country, should "go live in Europe if I love it that much" (er, thought the UK was in Europe?) etc. UKIP even have a member calling for us to be hanged/hordes to roam the streets with machetes looking for us traitors. 

[Archied]

40 minutes ago, BaaLocks said:

At the very least you will get a second referendum in about three years time - it's called a general election.

It will effectively become the choice to voice opinion that many are asking for. I do understand the point that some elements of the leave campaign feel that a second referendum is just chance to ask the question again until they get the answer they want. But no matter how fervent your view is on leave you cannot deny that there is not a single united view on what leave looks like. So the no deal camp are just as entitled to suggest that they have not been heard as the customs union soft Brexit as the remainers. Like it or not, and there is no debate on this point, this is not a binary discussion - we are not saying we either leave or stay but instead we are saying 'this is how we leave' and that is not what the first vote was around.

And that comes from someone who doesn't want a second referendum - I don't want it as I think it would promote even stronger division and extremism in our already challenged nation. These are potentially dangerous times - I know I might sound a bit alarmist but these things can easily get out of control and once they do we might not be able to stop them. 

General election??? ,, my god how do people have the slightest clue the best way to vote in that ,it will be very interesting to see what the turn out will be , will those who do vote be in a small minority ? 

I believe you are right in saying these are dangerous times and I honestly believe people are becoming increasingly tribal and moving backwards 

[GboroRam]

1 minute ago, Archied said:

General election??? ,, my god how do people have the slightest clue the best way to vote in that ,it will be very interesting to see what the turn out will be , will those who do vote be in a small minority ? 

I believe you are right in saying these are dangerous times and I honestly believe people are becoming increasingly tribal and moving backwards 

I wonder what the influence of the social media opinion influencing agencies such as the Russian based troll farms have in forcing the agenda here? Maybe I'm paranoid but I'm convinced there has been a coordinated attack designed to whip up hysteria and cause general mayhem. Who benefits most from a disabled UK and splintered EU? 

[McRamFan]

Great piece from a Tory!

Check out @Jim_Cornelius’s Tweet:

 

[Archied]

8 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

I wonder what the influence of the social media opinion influencing agencies such as the Russian based troll farms have in forcing the agenda here? Maybe I'm paranoid but I'm convinced there has been a coordinated attack designed to whip up hysteria and cause general mayhem. Who benefits most from a disabled UK and splintered EU? 

Don’t take offence but pointing towards the Russians is just another target that is easily pointed at to cover our own personal failures to communicate with each other properly and find middle ground ,it’s too easy and too closely related to blaming our problems on the Irish ,the Jews , the blacks , the Muslims ,, now don’t think for one minute that I think you are in anyway the type to condone that kind of thing as I’ve read enough of your posts to know different , I think you are correct in thinking social media has a massive part in how we are suddenly developing but not sure that can be put down to Russian interference

[maxjam]

21 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

I wonder what the influence of the social media opinion influencing agencies such as the Russian based troll farms have in forcing the agenda here? Maybe I'm paranoid but I'm convinced there has been a coordinated attack designed to whip up hysteria and cause general mayhem. Who benefits most from a disabled UK and splintered EU? 

Probably a lot less than googles ability...

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/08/how-google-could-rig-the-2016-election-121548

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2018/10/16/google-news-results-left-leaning/1651278002/

https://dailycaller.com/2018/11/29/google-censorship-conservative-media/

[alexxxxx]

7 minutes ago, maxjam said:

Probably a lot less than googles ability...

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/08/how-google-could-rig-the-2016-election-121548

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2018/10/16/google-news-results-left-leaning/1651278002/

https://dailycaller.com/2018/11/29/google-censorship-conservative-media/

apart from the fact people don't casually browse google, in comparison to facebook or twitter..

[maxjam]

3 minutes ago, alexxxxx said:

apart from the fact people don't casually browse google, in comparison to facebook or twitter..

I have neither facebook or twitter, I google everything.  Or I did until I swapped to DuckDuckGo

[McRamFan]

12 minutes ago, maxjam said:

Or I did until I swapped to DuckDuckGo

Been using that for years, as well as Tor Browser.

[alexxxxx]

6 minutes ago, maxjam said:

I have neither facebook or twitter, I google everything.  Or I did until I swapped to DuckDuckGo

just reading your links,

the first link is several years out of date and simply suggests that Google could change how its algorithm works, Donald Trump won that election.

the second link actually states that the report finds no evidence that Google actually adjusted its search results to be more left-leaning, it states that there are less right-wing news sites.

the third link tries to claim that Breitbart is a news source rather than an opinion-led blog, which is quite clearly isn't.

all three mainly focus on the impact on the USA and are not necessarily relevant to the UK context (something that left-wing commentators are often accused of).

and regardless of your preferences, i would wager that the effect of social media has a greater impact than google.

 

[GboroRam]

7 minutes ago, alexxxxx said:

egardless of your preferences, i would wager that the effect of social media has a greater impact than google.

 

Anyone out of hand denying it is denying what we already know happened. With Russian money, millions of pounds, illegally influencing the leave campaign, you have to ask for what purposes a foreign country ploughed significant figures in for. Do you really think that seven figure sums were spent but it made no difference to the result? 

[ariotofmyown]

6 hours ago, maxjam said:

Thats actually a very good article, it can probably be interpreted in different ways by different people but ultimately no matter what the end outcome of Brexit is we'll still be living in a broken and divided country that needs (imo) a new generation of politics and politicians to fix.

Thanks for reading. His articles are usually really balanced and he speaks to the sort of people you don't often hear from or read about ie the middle 80% of the country with normal views for whom life is probably getting worse.

[Guest]

22 hours ago, eddie said:

A referendum should only really be used when its sole purpose is to ratify a proposed course of action over which the authority has the capability of enacting both alternatives. "Leave" was never a course of action because the actual leave process was not defined - it was an end target where none of the steps leading up to the desired action existed, were laid out or were controllable.

There have been so many interpretations from so many people as to what their personal definition of 'leave' meant - a whole spectrum ranging from engaging with the EU as closely as possible (e.g. an arrangement similar to what Norway has with the EU) right the way through to walking away, welching on debts and telling the EU to sod off. Conversations I have had with people I have a close relationship with have a tendency to be unproductive, especially when the "Leave means leave" mantra is chanted, because of a tendency for the personal interpretation to then be projected to all the other people who voted to exit the EU. "We all voted for XYZ". No, YOU voted for XYZ. Others may have voted for another sequence of letters.

I've actually given up trying to get people to understand the simple fact that their interpretation is just one of a numer of different alternatives, all of which fit the question on the referendum, and all of which mean "Leave". Paul Simon's song could easily have been titled "50 Ways To Leave The EU".

 

 

What is your view on how the 2016 referendum and actions/implications differed from the 1975 referendum which was also on continued membership of what was then the European community or common market. The 1975 result was strongly in favour of remaining as members - for those who may be unaware that we have been down this road before 

[Rev]

2 hours ago, BaaLocks said:

And that comes from someone who doesn't want a second referendum - I don't want it as I think it would promote even stronger division and extremism in our already challenged nation. These are potentially dangerous times - I know I might sound a bit alarmist but these things can easily get out of control and once they do we might not be able to stop them. 

I don't agree with the bolded part, but perhaps I'm an idealist.

Over history since the vote has become democratic, the people of this country have never voted in favour of extreme right or left wing ideologies.

We rejected the march of the right wing in the 30's, when it was au fait in the rest of Europe.

We've never popularly backed either hard left or right since, as we vote like our weather, fair and temperate.

It feels different now granted, what was slightly left of middle has become has become 'loony left' in the eyes of most media, but that's more the media moving towards the right than the electorate.

If we had a presidential run off, I'd lay decent money the National Front candidate wouldn't be anywhere near the top 2 left standing.

 

 

 

[eddie]

34 minutes ago, Monty said:

What is your view on how the 2016 referendum and actions/implications differed from the 1975 referendum which was also on continued membership of what was then the European community or common market. The 1975 result was strongly in favour of remaining as members - for those who may be unaware that we have been down this road before 

We had, for a decade and more, been the 'sick man of Europe', largely due to industrial strife and declining productivity, especially in comparison to the European countries who were in the EEC. The period from 1973 (when we joined) to 1975 (when we held a referendum to remain as a member) was really too short to determine any benefits or disadvantages of membership.

Contrast that to 40 years later - sustained economic growth, increasing productivity in some areas and industries on the one hand, the decline of 'traditional' heavy industry on the other (coal, steel, shipbuilding) creating essentially an industrial vacuum in the areas where those industries were the traditional employers and skillset. On the one hand, 'nice' places becoming nicer, 'nasty' places becoming nastier. In short, a sustained polarisation between the haves and the have nots.

We live in a time when nothing is our fault - it is always somebody else who is the cause of the problems (a 'blame' culture). Just today, it was pointed out that the last two years have been the worst two years since the second world war for the construction of social and affordable housing. The Tories' answer was nothing about future plans (which are non-existent) - it was "In the previous x years of Tory government we built more than in the preceding y years of Labour government". If nothing is our fault and is caused by 'others', there is no incentive to fix anything.

Leaving the EU isn't going to fix 25 or 30 years of decline in the North-East, the North-West, the West Midlands or South Wales, because membership of the EU didn't cause the decline.