The Politics Thread 2019

[ossieram]

6 minutes ago, eddie said:

That you continue to support him comes as no surprise to anybody.

I should hope I've made my position clear by now and people shouldn't be surprised. But if you are willing to support a cult where the stoning of gays and the beheading of enemies is seen as ok, that's your choice.

[McRamFan]

31 minutes ago, ossieram said:

So you haven't managed to find any then!

There is plenty, I won't post links to that pond life, who is being bank rolled by hard right, ultra christian american think tanks.  Go read the interview he gave in Belguim, where he admits he is a racist, realises what he has said, then backtracks that far, he ends up in 1984.

Carry on being his fanboy, see where it gets you.

[RamNut]

It would be interesting to have a leave or remain poll now. 

when the result of the referendum was announced i was quite surprised.

i can't say that i had encountered many people who were pro-brexit, or were even motivated enough to express an opinion. I suspect that 'leave' camp was motivated to vote, whereas the 'Remainers' were more complacent. 

It would also be interesting to know what motivated people to vote the way they did.

for the leavers:

• fear about immigration and open movement across borders (seemed a big issue)
• fears about undemocratic EU imposing laws on Britain ( environmental and employment laws?)
• fears about a future EU superstate talking over total economic and political control of member states
• fears about the cost of membership and that the money could be much better spent on public services (why do we keep cutting our funding for public services if we believe in them so passionately?)
• trade - trading rules - attitudes to the future trading relationship split the leave camp into hard and soft brexiteers

for the Remainers

• Didn't believe that immigration and membership of the EU were intimately linked
• liked free movement across europe
• believed that the EU should be reformed from within as necessary
• believed that Britain should remain as an influential member of the European community
• believed membership was ultimately good for trade and jobs and possibly peace.
• Believed that integration was generally positive  - more pros than cons.

The result of the vote was geographically polarised, with Scotland and Northern Ireland voting differently to England and wales. A vote to leave immediately caused a problem in Ireland which was casually dismissed as resolvable, but has proved to be anything but. 

What has emerged is that difficulties with the Irish border issue has ultimately meant that a hard brexit could not be delivered, and this problem has split the brexiteers with hard liners seemingly just as opposed to a soft brexit as they were to 'remain'. Therefore if instead of a vote for the binary options of leave or remain, there was a vote for hard brexit, soft brexit or remain, there would probably be no overall majority for any one option with the added problem that one of the three options is non-deliverable. 

So it seems now that the only real-world options are soft brexit (May deal) or remain. 

Whatever your initial opinion and vote, the situation has since changed and the revised options could be put to another public vote. Hard brexiteers fear that this would be a betrayal of the 17.4millions who voted to leave, but 17.4 million did not vote for a hard brexit. Many voted for a soft brexit, and the hard brexit option seems to have died a death.

Parliament cannot organise a pish up in a brewery and their collective failure has become a national embarrassment. MPs are the new bankers, putting the economic welfare of the country at risk due to their collective incompetence. Call a general election now and i dare say most wouldn't even be able to decide what they really believe in. They are too wrapped up in the soap operas playing out in the house. 

Hard liners generally refuse to accept the fact that their preferred option cannot be delivered, and the house is therefore paralysed and deadlocked. But their arrogance, fear, and collective failure so far refuses to allow the public a second vote. It would be an admission of their own failure. And a vote to Remain would make them look absolute twits. 

And so we drift like the rudderless ship we are. "Taking back control" is almost hysterically funny now.

[Uptherams]

15 hours ago, ossieram said:

Yes loads of anti Islamic stuff, but Islam is a religion not a race.

It many regards it's a political structure. 

[Uptherams]

12 hours ago, Highgate said:

Yeah, that's a good point.  But at least with Remain, it was clear what EU you would be part of

LOL

[GboroRam]

2 hours ago, Uptherams said:

LOL

Clearer than the mess on offer now. 

[Highgate]

2 hours ago, Uptherams said:

14 hours ago, Highgate said:

Yeah, that's a good point.  But at least with Remain, it was clear what EU you would be part of

LOL

Some creative quoting there, breaking off in mid-sentence.

You don't think remaining in the EU would at least have been the more straightforward option, than voting for an undefined amorphous brexit?  Literally nobody in Europe even knows what sort of Brexit the UK is asking for. How is it possible to successfully negotiate your future, when you do not have an agreed majority around any particular version of that future.?

I'm making no comment here about whether Brexit is good or bad for the UK in the long-term. 

[therealhantsram]

3 hours ago, RamNut said:

It would be interesting to have a leave or remain poll now. 

when the result of the referendum was announced i was quite surprised.

i can't say that i had encountered many people who were pro-brexit, or were even motivated enough to express an opinion. I suspect that 'leave' camp was motivated to vote, whereas the 'Remainers' were more complacent. 

It would also be interesting to know what motivated people to vote the way they did.

for the leavers:

• fear about immigration and open movement across borders (seemed a big issue)
• fears about undemocratic EU imposing laws on Britain ( environmental and employment laws?)
• fears about a future EU superstate talking over total economic and political control of member states
• fears about the cost of membership and that the money could be much better spent on public services (why do we keep cutting our funding for public services if we believe in them so passionately?)
• trade - trading rules - attitudes to the future trading relationship split the leave camp into hard and soft brexiteers

for the Remainers

• Didn't believe that immigration and membership of the EU were intimately linked
• liked free movement across europe
• believed that the EU should be reformed from within as necessary
• believed that Britain should remain as an influential member of the European community
• believed membership was ultimately good for trade and jobs and possibly peace.
• Believed that integration was generally positive  - more pros than cons.

The result of the vote was geographically polarised, with Scotland and Northern Ireland voting differently to England and wales. A vote to leave immediately caused a problem in Ireland which was casually dismissed as resolvable, but has proved to be anything but. 

What has emerged is that difficulties with the Irish border issue has ultimately meant that a hard brexit could not be delivered, and this problem has split the brexiteers with hard liners seemingly just as opposed to a soft brexit as they were to 'remain'. Therefore if instead of a vote for the binary options of leave or remain, there was a vote for hard brexit, soft brexit or remain, there would probably be no overall majority for any one option with the added problem that one of the three options is non-deliverable. 

So it seems now that the only real-world options are soft brexit (May deal) or remain. 

Whatever your initial opinion and vote, the situation has since changed and the revised options could be put to another public vote. Hard brexiteers fear that this would be a betrayal of the 17.4millions who voted to leave, but 17.4 million did not vote for a hard brexit. Many voted for a soft brexit, and the hard brexit option seems to have died a death.

Parliament cannot organise a pish up in a brewery and their collective failure has become a national embarrassment. MPs are the new bankers, putting the economic welfare of the country at risk due to their collective incompetence. Call a general election now and i dare say most wouldn't even be able to decide what they really believe in. They are too wrapped up in the soap operas playing out in the house. 

Hard liners generally refuse to accept the fact that their preferred option cannot be delivered, and the house is therefore paralysed and deadlocked. But their arrogance, fear, and collective failure so far refuses to allow the public a second vote. It would be an admission of their own failure. And a vote to Remain would make them look absolute twits. 

And so we drift like the rudderless ship we are. "Taking back control" is almost hysterically funny now.

This is a perfect analysis of the current situation. If only we got this sort of insight from the likes of Kunesberg or Peston...

[McRamFan]

Germany's analysis, very interesting.  Now can a brexiteer post a short film or list if tangible benefits they are expecting? 3 years and still asking.

Check out @brexit_sham’s Tweet:

 

[1of4]

3 hours ago, RamNut said:

It would be interesting to have a leave or remain poll now. 

when the result of the referendum was announced i was quite surprised.

i can't say that i had encountered many people who were pro-brexit, or were even motivated enough to express an opinion. I suspect that 'leave' camp was motivated to vote, whereas the 'Remainers' were more complacent. 

It would also be interesting to know what motivated people to vote the way they did.

for the leavers:

• fear about immigration and open movement across borders (seemed a big issue)
• fears about undemocratic EU imposing laws on Britain ( environmental and employment laws?)
• fears about a future EU superstate talking over total economic and political control of member states
• fears about the cost of membership and that the money could be much better spent on public services (why do we keep cutting our funding for public services if we believe in them so passionately?)
• trade - trading rules - attitudes to the future trading relationship split the leave camp into hard and soft brexiteers

for the Remainers

• Didn't believe that immigration and membership of the EU were intimately linked
• liked free movement across europe
• believed that the EU should be reformed from within as necessary
• believed that Britain should remain as an influential member of the European community
• believed membership was ultimately good for trade and jobs and possibly peace.
• Believed that integration was generally positive  - more pros than cons.

The result of the vote was geographically polarised, with Scotland and Northern Ireland voting differently to England and wales. A vote to leave immediately caused a problem in Ireland which was casually dismissed as resolvable, but has proved to be anything but. 

What has emerged is that difficulties with the Irish border issue has ultimately meant that a hard brexit could not be delivered, and this problem has split the brexiteers with hard liners seemingly just as opposed to a soft brexit as they were to 'remain'. Therefore if instead of a vote for the binary options of leave or remain, there was a vote for hard brexit, soft brexit or remain, there would probably be no overall majority for any one option with the added problem that one of the three options is non-deliverable. 

So it seems now that the only real-world options are soft brexit (May deal) or remain. 

Whatever your initial opinion and vote, the situation has since changed and the revised options could be put to another public vote. Hard brexiteers fear that this would be a betrayal of the 17.4millions who voted to leave, but 17.4 million did not vote for a hard brexit. Many voted for a soft brexit, and the hard brexit option seems to have died a death.

Parliament cannot organise a pish up in a brewery and their collective failure has become a national embarrassment. MPs are the new bankers, putting the economic welfare of the country at risk due to their collective incompetence. Call a general election now and i dare say most wouldn't even be able to decide what they really believe in. They are too wrapped up in the soap operas playing out in the house. 

Hard liners generally refuse to accept the fact that their preferred option cannot be delivered, and the house is therefore paralysed and deadlocked. But their arrogance, fear, and collective failure so far refuses to allow the public a second vote. It would be an admission of their own failure. And a vote to Remain would make them look absolute twits. 

And so we drift like the rudderless ship we are. "Taking back control" is almost hysterically funny now.

 I don't agree with the statement about the MPs not caring about the welfare of the country. It's why Parliament is in this mess. MPs from both sides of the argument think any deal that they disagree with, will be bad for the country. I feel it the same reason many MPs while wanting to comply with their constituents wish,  are finding it hard to do because they believe any of the deals on offer will be detrimental for the country.

Yes there should be another referendum, to give the nation an opportunity to vote on any deal that is finally agreed to by Parliament.

Many leave voters moan about a second vote calling it undemocratic. Can't understand how any vote that gives everyone a chance to give their opinion on any deal undemocratic.

The only time a vote would be undemocratic, would be if not everyone had the opportunity to vote or if the people conducting the campaigns had been proved to have done so illegally. Never happen in modern history would it.

Just so there's no misunderstanding the last sentence was written with tongue firmly in cheek.

[Gritstone Ram]

14 hours ago, uttoxram75 said:

There is more to politics than Leave or Remain, maybe we should be discussing statistics like, 

number of deaths in the UK due to terrorism since 2000 = 54

number of deaths in UK due to austerity since 2015 = 120,000

 

We are tearing our country apart while vested interests are slashing the very public services that most of us grew up with and relied on. I don't care if we are in the EU or not, but I do care about having a National Health Service, affordable housing, fair wages and fair taxes.

This is the country I grew up in yet according to some you're a communist if you want a decent, caring society.

 

My 82 year old mum can remember her mum not being able to afford to take her kids to the doctor pre the NHS. is this what we want to go back to?

Why aren't we angry about this? Why do working class blokes side with people like Stephen Yaxley-Lennon and Nigel Farage who openly accept financial support from groups who want to inflict poverty on the majority of British people?

 

 

 

 

There is nothing wrong with wanting a decent caring society but this country is too far gone to get that now. It’s every man for himself I’m afraid.

[McRamFan]

 

[Uptherams]

5 hours ago, GboroRam said:

Clearer than the mess on offer now. 

An EU that less than 1/5th of people who voted want to be part of. ?

[cstand]

37 minutes ago, McRamFan said:

 

U turn if you want to Democratic votes are not for turning.

[WhiteHorseRam]

6 hours ago, GboroRam said:

Clearer than the mess on offer now. 

The great historical events we are living through ..... makes Suez look like lost car keys 

[1of4]

1 hour ago, Uptherams said:

An EU that less than 1/5th of people who voted want to be part of. ?

Have I missed a vote somewhere?  Didn't 49% vote to remain part of it.

[Archied]

4 hours ago, 1of4 said:

 I don't agree with the statement about the MPs not caring about the welfare of the country. It's why Parliament is in this mess. MPs from both sides of the argument think any deal that they disagree with, will be bad for the country. I feel it the same reason many MPs while wanting to comply with their constituents wish,  are finding it hard to do because they believe any of the deals on offer will be detrimental for the country.

Yes there should be another referendum, to give the nation an opportunity to vote on any deal that is finally agreed to by Parliament.

Many leave voters moan about a second vote calling it undemocratic. Can't understand how any vote that gives everyone a chance to give their opinion on any deal undemocratic.

The only time a vote would be undemocratic, would be if not everyone had the opportunity to vote or if the people conducting the campaigns had been proved to have done so illegally. Never happen in modern history would it.

Just so there's no misunderstanding the last sentence was written with tongue firmly in cheek.

Why is another referdum suddenly going to carry any more weight or be adhered to more than the first one?

[GboroRam]

1 hour ago, Uptherams said:

An EU that less than 1/5th of people who voted want to be part of. ?

So 80% voted for this? Did you? 

[Inglorius]

1 hour ago, Uptherams said:

An EU that less than 1/5th of people who voted want to be part of. ?

What does this mean am not sure where you plucked this figure from?

[Uptherams]

1 hour ago, 1of4 said:

Have I missed a vote somewhere?  Didn't 49% vote to remain part of it.

EU federalists...