The Politics Thread 2019

[Archied]

1 hour ago, eddie said:

Norway seem perfectly happy with their "Half in, half out hotchpotch", and clearly don't think that's worse than joining the EU as a fully-fledged member.

That’s fine but we aren’t talking about Norway though we are talking about the uk that voted on a simple leave or remain question and voted leave with plenty of lies and scaremongering from both sides , we either leave or we be honest and open about the fact that ordinary people’s opinions and votes count for nothing , now that may actually be the best way anyway but at least let’s cut the pretence 

[eddie]

1 hour ago, ossieram said:

Yes loads of anti Islamic stuff, but Islam is a religion not a race.

So you think it's perfectly acceptable to abuse an entire religion, numbering about 25% of the entire population of the planet, do you?

The steps you go to in order to defend an obnoxious, foul-mouthed islamophobic scumbag, serial football hooligan and seemingly full-time criminal and fraudster are frankly bizarre.

[eddie]

35 minutes ago, Archied said:

That’s fine but we aren’t talking about Norway though we are talking about the uk that voted on a simple leave or remain question and voted leave with plenty of lies and scaremongering from both sides , we either leave or we be honest and open about the fact that ordinary people’s opinions and votes count for nothing , now that may actually be the best way anyway but at least let’s cut the pretence 

You spoke about a "...terrible hotch potch half in half out deal that is clearly worse than staying in". I would suggest that there is nothing clear at all other than the indisputable fact that, in 2016, there was a majority expressing a preference to leave the EU. Whether there is a majority in favour of just walking away from the EU, burning all of our bridges and jeopardising the future of the country for years or decades to come by not securing a negotiated settlement relating to the actual process of leaving now, in 2019, has never been determined.

My argument is, if you were prepared to trust the public in 2016, why not trust them in 2019?

 

[JoetheRam]

6 hours ago, Highgate said:

Wouldn't 'best of 3' be even more democratic ?  ?

Seriously though, I think there are legitimate concerns about whether people knew what sort of Brexit they were voting for.  The problem with the first referendum was that Brexit was never really a binary choice.  There was leave or not leave obviously...but in reality 'leave' was a whole spectrum of choices, none of which on their own has a majority of people behind it, either in parliament or in the population as a whole.  The best time to vote on Brexit would be when the withdrawal agreement was already agreed and the subsequent trading agreements in place, so people would actually know what sort of a Brexit was on the table.  But that would have required a two-step referendum process, which is unprecedented as far as I know.

To state the obvious, it's a genuinely difficult situation to sort out.  A victory for staying in the EU in a second referendum wouldn't sort it out either.  Many leave voters would feel betrayed and not without good reason.

I agree Leave was not a binary choice, but was remain not part of a spectrum as well? Are people who want to remain, happy to remain in the EU indefinitely whatever rules/ideas/plans they have for us? Are they just happy to remain with the situation in Europe as it currently is? Is there anything that could happen to pursuade them not to want to be part of the EU in the future, or is their identity so far ingrained as "Europe first" that they'd vote remain in all situations?

[ossieram]

33 minutes ago, eddie said:

So you think it's perfectly acceptable to abuse an entire religion

Yes. And I don't care what religion it is, be it Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Scientology or Hinduism.

Until there is absolute proof that their god exists and that they are doing exactly what their god wants them to do, they should all be open to abuse and ridicule.

[eddie]

1 minute ago, ossieram said:

Yes. And I don't care what religion it is, be it Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Scientology or Hinduism.

Until there is absolute proof that their god exists and that they are doing exactly what their god wants them to do, they should all be open to abuse and ridicule.

Don't ever let anybody accuse you of moving the goalposts.

Coming back to your initial defence of Tommy Robinson (and you have consistently and constantly defended him for years on this messageboard, don't even try to deny it)...

From the All Party Parliamentary Group's definition of Islamophobia... "Islamophobia is rooted in racism and is a type of racism that targets expressions of Muslimness or perceived Muslimness."

I'll leave it there.

[Archied]

44 minutes ago, eddie said:

You spoke about a "...terrible hotch potch half in half out deal that is clearly worse than staying in". I would suggest that there is nothing clear at all other than the indisputable fact that, in 2016, there was a majority expressing a preference to leave the EU. Whether there is a majority in favour of just walking away from the EU, burning all of our bridges and jeopardising the future of the country for years or decades to come by not securing a negotiated settlement relating to the actual process of leaving now, in 2019, has never been determined.

My argument is, if you were prepared to trust the public in 2016, why not trust them in 2019?

 

Interesting , clearly the public have not been trusted in 2016 as their vote has not been implemented so perhaps a better question would be if you were not prepared to trust the people in 2016 why would you be any more prepared to trust them in 2019 ( unless they come back with The result you want), my thoughts in 2016 were slightly favouring remain but more inclined towards leave now 

[Highgate]

47 minutes ago, JoetheRam said:

I agree Leave was not a binary choice, but was remain not part of a spectrum as well? Are people who want to remain, happy to remain in the EU indefinitely whatever rules/ideas/plans they have for us? Are they just happy to remain with the situation in Europe as it currently is? Is there anything that could happen to pursuade them not to want to be part of the EU in the future, or is their identity so far ingrained as "Europe first" that they'd vote remain in all situations?

Yeah, that's a good point.  But at least with Remain, it was clear what EU you would be part of right now (who knows what the future might bring), whereas with leave it wasn't clear what sort of Brexit would be delivered.

As for the Remainers, I think most have reservations about various aspects of the EU but think it's better to be in it all things considered. I also get the impression that a majority of Remainers would prefer not to follow some European's aim of full integration into what would basically be a single country rather than a union of countries.  It would be interesting to poll those views actually, although I guess it doesn't really matter anymore. 

I think a lot of countries in the EU don't want full integration. It's a shame for us that the UK,  probably the strongest opponent of that ambition, has voted itself out already.

[ossieram]

1 hour ago, eddie said:

Don't ever let anybody accuse you of moving the goalposts.

Coming back to your initial defence of Tommy Robinson (and you have consistently and constantly defended him for years on this messageboard, don't even try to deny it)...

From the All Party Parliamentary Group's definition of Islamophobia... "Islamophobia is rooted in racism and is a type of racism that targets expressions of Muslimness or perceived Muslimness."

I'll leave it there.

Why would I try and deny it, it's true.

And I don't really care what some politically correct bunch of prats definition if Islamophobia is.

 

[cstand]

6 minutes ago, ossieram said:

Why would I try and deny it, it's true.

And I don't really care what some politically correct bunch of prats definition if Islamophobia is.

 

Sorry but had a few beers what racist conviction  has got Tommy Robinson Got? 

[StringerBell]

2 hours ago, eddie said:

Don't ever let anybody accuse you of moving the goalposts.

Coming back to your initial defence of Tommy Robinson (and you have consistently and constantly defended him for years on this messageboard, don't even try to deny it)...

From the All Party Parliamentary Group's definition of Islamophobia... "Islamophobia is rooted in racism and is a type of racism that targets expressions of Muslimness or perceived Muslimness."

I'll leave it there.

I prefer Hitchens' definition.

[uttoxram75]

There is more to politics than Leave or Remain, maybe we should be discussing statistics like, 

number of deaths in the UK due to terrorism since 2000 = 54

number of deaths in UK due to austerity since 2015 = 120,000

 

We are tearing our country apart while vested interests are slashing the very public services that most of us grew up with and relied on. I don't care if we are in the EU or not, but I do care about having a National Health Service, affordable housing, fair wages and fair taxes.

This is the country I grew up in yet according to some you're a communist if you want a decent, caring society.

 

My 82 year old mum can remember her mum not being able to afford to take her kids to the doctor pre the NHS. is this what we want to go back to?

Why aren't we angry about this? Why do working class blokes side with people like Stephen Yaxley-Lennon and Nigel Farage who openly accept financial support from groups who want to inflict poverty on the majority of British people?

 

 

 

[maxjam]

7 hours ago, uttoxram75 said:

Why do working class blokes side with people like Stephen Yaxley-Lennon and Nigel Farage who openly accept financial support from groups who want to inflict poverty on the majority of British people?

 

Tommy Robinson is a direct result of mass (muslim in this case) immigration and people having genuine concerns about their communities - but being told they are racist if they want to talk about them.

Brexit is a direct result of ordinary working class people feeling as though they are being left behind and having their concerns ignored by the ruling elite.

In both cases less censorship and more communication and compromise is the answer, instead leavers are repeatedly told they are uneducated racist bigots who should defer to the wishes of those that want to remain in Europe. 

Brexit has gone way beyond Europe, an increasingly large schism his opening up.  The result imo will be to either stay as we are and watch the slow decent into chaos or relax some of the insane political correctness and shake up our political system - unfortunately parliament is obsessed with protecting their two party system and silencing dissenting voices rather than dealing with the issues of the average person.

[Norman]

On 06/04/2019 at 07:25, Archied said:

Your making a good start towards it then,, 

yes there are some you could level your sweeping judgment on but there are many who will work their arse off and never never have a pot to piss in , i will be going up and down ladders till I drop though I’m lucky enough to have the savvy to have put together a little business so I won’t be flat out to earn a living , some don’t have that wherewithal, it’s the luck of the draw with what your born with and brought up with

Mate, it was the sweeping statement that those who do manual labour end up pushing trolleys that riled me to that response. Nobody has picked up on that one.

He felt sorry for us. Because we are incapable of saving, investing, having qualifications to rely on etc.

Thought it was a patronising, snooty comment, so I responded by saying the vast majority of us, that I know personally, are far more 'savvy' than he thinks.

Plus the narrative on this thread that Leave voters are thick, just wound me up. His opinion is; vote leave? Idiot racist. Manual labourer? Pushing trolleys when youre older. It's just ducking wrong, in my experience.

Like you say, you have thought ahead, like many of us. And good luck with it.

[Gritstone Ram]

I think we have been stitched up with this Brexit stuff.

When we knew the results of the referendum we should have sent a letter to the EU and said we have had a referendum the result was leave the EU.

We then should have put all our effort into preparing to leave with no deal. That would give us nearly 3 years to get ready for leaving. If in the mean time the EU came to us to negotiate a trade deal we should have eithe accepted it or rejected it.

What has happened must be one of three things...

1. The powers that be don’t or can’t leave the EU.

2. The Government have got it completely wrong and have completely cocked things up.

3. There are that many different opinions from all walks of life no matter what is negotiated over 50% of the population will not be happy with the outcome.

 

I think it is a combination of all 3.

The result was fairly close so you automatically have nearly 50% wanting to remain. The EU do not want us to leave and if we do they want us tied into them so we can’t prosper and make a success outside the EU. 

Trying to satisfy everyone with a withdrawal strategy has resulted in satisfying no one.

[McRamFan]

15 hours ago, ossieram said:

If there is plenty of examples of him being rascist on youtube, it won't take you long to post a few examples will it.

DIY

[ossieram]

5 minutes ago, McRamFan said:

DIY

So you haven't managed to find any then!

[ossieram]

9 hours ago, cstand said:

Sorry but had a few beers what racist conviction  has got Tommy Robinson Got? 

A long list of zero.

[eddie]

8 hours ago, StringerBell said:

I prefer Hitchens' definition.

Hitchens isn't a member of the British Parliament. The fact that you would prefer something which isn't supported by ALL PARTIES in this country doesn't surprise me one little bit.

[eddie]

2 minutes ago, ossieram said:

A long list of zero.

That you continue to support him comes as no surprise to anybody.