Andicis Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 8 minutes ago, JoeDerby said: It tells us that our back 4 are seeing too much of the ball, get in to the midfield faster and let them control the game rather than Keogh.. You mean our midfield that doesn't show for the ball enough? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KCG Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 1 minute ago, Andicis said: You mean our midfield that doesn't show for the ball enough? Because they all see themselves as attackers, which they are! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomBustler1884 Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 We don't defend as a team at the moment. It seems to me that we have two halves of the team, a goalkeeper and 4 defenders, with the other half being 5 attack-minded midfielders and a striker. We have been poor at preventing crosses, Tomori isn't a great header, and our midfield is too far forward to pick up second balls or short clearances. On top of that, when in possession and playing out from the back, teams are pressing up, closing down space and making it hard for defenders to find a pass. This inevitably leads to mistakes, especially when Keogh is the one who is expected to find that killer pass. Since May 2014, any mistake he makes is highlighted as being a total calamity, it isn't but he is exposed more than any of the other defenders when in possession. I'm not making excuses fro Keogh, he tends to have these moments 3-4 times each game, however he also has 10-15 moments each game where he plays an exceptional pass, brings the ball out when nobody in midfield is on, or makes an important tackle/header/clearance/block. He is not the perfect defender, but he is a good one. He also cares passionately about the team and the club and puts maximum effort in every match. That makes him a better player in my eyes than some wage drain like Jason Shackell who cares about nothing more than his paycheck. We will miss Keogh when he's gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1of4 Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 22 minutes ago, Andicis said: You mean our midfield that doesn't show for the ball enough? 20 minutes ago, KCG said: Because they all see themselves as attackers, which they are! That clears up the problem I have with Huddlestone and how he's performed this season. He's been to busy bombing forward into the opposition's box, instead of using his physical presence to dominant the midfield and act as a shield in front of our defence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeDerby Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 4 minutes ago, 1of4 said: That clears up the problem I have with Huddlestone and how he's performed this season. He's been to busy bombing forward into the opposition's box, instead of using his physical presence to dominant the midfield and act as a shield in front of our defence. I'm not gonna lie, lets put this straight, we've never seen Huddlestone 'bombing forward' in his whole career! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaspode Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 35 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said: It tells us whoever does eventually replace Keogh has to be comfortable on the ball No it doesn't (however likely that is) - we could be (almost certainly are) over-playing at the back. Lampard may want someone in midfield to make themselves available so that the defense don't have to spend so much time passing between themselves - or he may prefer a centre-half that is more decisive and more offensive minded when passing from the back so that there's less 'fannying about' when we're in possession. The quoted stats tell you that Keogh sees a lot of the ball and passes it to other players - that's it - nothing about whether he can defend or indeed whether those passes are good ones or whether his pass drops another player in the doo-doo (as has been the case on numerous ocassions over the years) - fair enough that the 'football manager' generation use stats to justify their opinions - but there's a need to see what those stats tell you rather than interpret them incorrectly to try to prove a point.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comrade 86 Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 57 minutes ago, JoeDerby said: I'm not gonna lie, lets put this straight, we've never seen Huddlestone 'bombing forward' in his whole career! Think the comment might have been tongue in cheek, Joe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeDerby Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 2 minutes ago, 86 points said: Think the comment might have been tongue in cheek, Joe. damn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comrade 86 Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 58 minutes ago, Gaspode said: No it doesn't (however likely that is) - we could be (almost certainly are) over-playing at the back. Lampard may want someone in midfield to make themselves available so that the defense don't have to spend so much time passing between themselves - or he may prefer a centre-half that is more decisive and more offensive minded when passing from the back so that there's less 'fannying about' when we're in possession. The quoted stats tell you that Keogh sees a lot of the ball and passes it to other players - that's it - nothing about whether he can defend or indeed whether those passes are good ones or whether his pass drops another player in the doo-doo (as has been the case on numerous ocassions over the years) - fair enough that the 'football manager' generation use stats to justify their opinions - but there's a need to see what those stats tell you rather than interpret them incorrectly to try to prove a point.... Damn them young'uns with their statistical analysis, eh! To be fair, the poster made no hard and fast claims based on the table, it's just an interesting stat that if anything, suggests Keogh is comfortable with the ball. Not something that might apply to say Shackell, or even Curtis for that matter. It might also, to a degree, mitigate the whole 'he makes mistakes' thing as if he's seeing that much of the ball, it obviously follows that he has more opportunities to mess up than players seeing dramatically less of it. Or does it? Perhaps of more interest is the lack of data suggesting Keogh is a s bad as his detractors would have us believe. Not seen anything to support that argument personally. Agree with your point however, that without considered interpretation, a lot of stats tell us the square root of **** all. Fact is, the Keogh debate will rage on ad nauseam until the poor sod leaves before some on here will appreciate that he's rather better than they supposed. Or perhaps they'll just switch their attention to berating his successor, who knows? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comrade 86 Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 12 minutes ago, JoeDerby said: damn. Was checking for a friend Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TommyPowell Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 On 11/08/2018 at 20:36, RoyMac5 said: Because most of them haven’t a clue about how the game is played. The others are just obsessive. so you believe you are a better judge than all the managers of recent time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MuespachRam Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 2 hours ago, TomBustler1884 said: We don't defend as a team at the moment. It seems to me that we have two halves of the team, a goalkeeper and 4 defenders, with the other half being 5 attack-minded midfielders and a striker. We have been poor at preventing crosses, Tomori isn't a great header, and our midfield is too far forward to pick up second balls or short clearances. On top of that, when in possession and playing out from the back, teams are pressing up, closing down space and making it hard for defenders to find a pass. This inevitably leads to mistakes, especially when Keogh is the one who is expected to find that killer pass. Since May 2014, any mistake he makes is highlighted as being a total calamity, it isn't but he is exposed more than any of the other defenders when in possession. I'm not making excuses fro Keogh, he tends to have these moments 3-4 times each game, however he also has 10-15 moments each game where he plays an exceptional pass, brings the ball out when nobody in midfield is on, or makes an important tackle/header/clearance/block. He is not the perfect defender, but he is a good one. He also cares passionately about the team and the club and puts maximum effort in every match. That makes him a better player in my eyes than some wage drain like Jason Shackell who cares about nothing more than his paycheck. We will miss Keogh when he's gone. I heard them describing Arsenal on the Football Ramble and it totally sums us up.... We are a Mullet team....the business at the front and they are having a right old party at the back... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaspode Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 39 minutes ago, 86 points said: Damn them young'uns with their statistical analysis, eh! ...... You may just have picked up on one of my pet hates in modern football - not just 'the kids' over reliance on stats, but pundits in general (and Sky in particular - they've even ridiculously quoted stats on how many saves a golakeeper SHOULD make in a game) - not saying there isn't a use for the statistical analysis as long as people understand what they're trying to say - the fact (in isolation) that Keogh passes the ball more than all of our other players doesn't make him our best passer of the ball, nor does it suggest that he is a good defender - I think I'll stick to my tried and tested 'personal opinion' method of deciding if a player is any good.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andicis Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 16 minutes ago, Gaspode said: the fact (in isolation) that Keogh passes the ball more than all of our other players doesn't make him our best passer of the ball, nor does it suggest that he is a good defender No it doesn't. It could, however, be a valid excuse for why people claim Keogh ''makes more mistakes'' than the players around him, because he sees more of the ball? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RamNut Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 Overall i think keogh and tomori have done well. I'm not sure what percentage of chances or goals conceded we would consider reasonable for a centre half, but i reckon overall keogh is ahead and no more accountable than anyone else for errors. we've probably had more televised games due to the interest in frank, and the carabao cup run, and a few keogh errors therefore have had more exposure than normal. But few obvious errors have actually lead directly to goals. In the opening live game at Reading virtually the first thing he did was to pass square to nobody and put us under tremendous pressure. No-one died. in the cup game at man utd, he mis-controlled a back pass which span off to lukaku and put the striker clean through. Lukaku missed. In the cup game at chelsea,he scored a daft own goal which contributed to us going out of a competition we were never going to win. However, in the last four games he has probably been implicated in giving away as many goals or chances as he has in the whole of the rest of the season. And presumably thats why this subject is back on the agenda. v bristol city, his weak header allowed patterson to opening the scoring, and it wasn't his best game. v sheff utd, he could perhaps have done more to help cover for the first goal, and was also out of the centre for the second. V norwich, he gave the ball away early on leading to a chance for hernandez. And on the third goal he gets drawn forward trying the win the ball off stieperman. When the balls gets played over the the top he can't recover his position in the middle. One thing i noticed about shackell was how he rarely - if ever - he got drawn forward trying to win 50/50s that it you lose you're in trouble. This season he has had a much harder job with two rookies alongside him and the emphasis on playing out from the back. His experience has been vital and overall i'm not sure there are many who could have done better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaspode Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 I guess the fact that we appear to be letting Pearce go out on loan would suggest that we will be bringing in an additional centre-half - I doubt Frank will do that simply to have someone sitting on the bench so it will be interesting to see who he choses to replace (unless of course he decides to utilise Wisdom as cover in the middle and Lowe at left-back) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FindernRam Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 30 minutes ago, Gaspode said: (unless of course he decides to utilise Wisdom as cover in the middle and Lowe at left-back) I think that has to be the plan, but crikey we're thin at the back now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSD Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 Let's face it. Who else can we realistically replace Keogh whilst the team are in this division? He always seems to play better with a solid traditional centre half e.g. Buxton, Davies. Tomori looks good when's on the ball and his pace is fantastic. But he lacks the fundamental qualities of a good centre half at the moment like positioning, marking and heading ability. I think it's down to his age, he's naïve and I think he'll improve over time. He can't replace Davies though, I think we miss him more than we realise. I feel sorry for Keogh because our recent manager's have been trying to focus on the defenders passing the ball out from the back at every opportunity. By all mean if there's no pressure on the ball, play the nice pass. But time after time, he keeps making a meal out of it when his first thought should be the old "safety first, boot it up the pitch." I never saw Ferdinand and Vidic trying to be pretty footballers when to me, they're the best centre half pairing I've seen in recent years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Srg Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 13 minutes ago, SouthStandDan said: Let's face it. Who else can we realistically replace Keogh whilst the team are in this division? He always seems to play better with a solid traditional centre half e.g. Buxton, Davies. Tomori looks good when's on the ball and his pace is fantastic. But he lacks the fundamental qualities of a good centre half at the moment like positioning, marking and heading ability. I think it's down to his age, he's naïve and I think he'll improve over time. He can't replace Davies though, I think we miss him more than we realise. I feel sorry for Keogh because our recent manager's have been trying to focus on the defenders passing the ball out from the back at every opportunity. By all mean if there's no pressure on the ball, play the nice pass. But time after time, he keeps making a meal out of it when his first thought should be the old "safety first, boot it up the pitch." I never saw Ferdinand and Vidic trying to be pretty footballers when to me, they're the best centre half pairing I've seen in recent years. Play Davies in this team and our attacking goes down the pan. He was unbelievable in a Rowett, sit on the edge of your own box for 90 mins team. Asked to hold a higher line and play football through the midfield and he can't do it. It's a trade off... score less goals, play worse football and invite pressure to maybe keep a clean sheet here and there, or play better football, create more chances, score more goals but maybe concede a few sloppy goals. In past seasons where we have tried to pass out from the back with Keogh and a centre half next to him who's less capable, we've seen opponents position their striker on Keogh to stop us doing it and we've inevitably struggled moving the ball forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sexydadbod Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 We need to be looking to replace Keogh soon regardless because he’s getting old (33this year) and his game will decline more the next few years. We need a couple of young centre backs to allow them to settle in in the mean time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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