needles Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 I'll trust Mel and Sam not to **** us up with regard to FFP, which is probably verging on a dead duck anyway. It's all gone quiet on QPR, and I don't believe it'd stand up to a determined legal challenge anyway...or surely the league would have sunk QPR by now? Where I slightly worry is with the potential for us to piss money away. Rhodes scores goals, but, £12m? In our side? ********. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninos Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 My first feeling :Another failed prem league player for silly money just at a time we are rolling like a steam train. Sako I get (because he was unstoppable out wide ala Antonio) bit do we want to be stuck yet again paying big money for anyone that has not continued to succeed. Isn't this Vydra all over again ? Apple cart Apple cart! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 3 hours ago, eddie said: If you buy a player, that is written down over the length of the contract. If you sell a player, the whole fee is entered into the books immediately for FFP purposes. So basically selling Hendrick brought in £10m, but buying Vydra and Anya for the same price overall would still leave +£7m on the balance sheet for this year. Whilst true from an FFP perspective, from a cash flow perspective unless the fee for Hendrick is all received up front, there is no surplus cash available for New signings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
admira Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 I'm sure Villa will pip us to his signature like they did with most of our supposed summer targets. Saying that though, they're already overloaded with strikers so Rhodes may see Derby as a more likely starting place opportunity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Kevin Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 8 hours ago, G STAR RAM said: Based on the fact that in 2014 we lost £10m and since then have signed players for fees in excess of £30m, who I would also imagine are on decent wages. Also see Financial Matters thread in Rams Talk. Not an expert on FFP but believe we must be close to limits, just a hunch though. Mel insured the players so Butterfield and Johnson will not impact on FFP as much as the insurance for Hughes and Bryson will offset this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlsonDerby Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 8 hours ago, eddie said: If you buy a player, that is written down over the length of the contract. If you sell a player, the whole fee is entered into the books immediately for FFP purposes. So basically selling Hendrick brought in £10m, but buying Vydra and Anya for the same price overall would still leave +£7m on the balance sheet for this year. But we've also got a quarter of all of those 4 year deals signed under clement to go on to this years FFP. If we're to believe they cost circa £20m then that's another 5m onto our perceived expenditure in the eyes of FFP. Then we take into account a quarter of the Thorne fee from 2 summers back. Probably another £500k minimum. That £7m excess doesn't exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gritty Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 This summer we were roughly flat on transfer spend. In: Albentosa (1mn), Hendrick (10.5mn), Loan fee for Martin (2.5mn), Shotton (500k), Grant loan fee (? 100k?), Bucko - nominal. Total: 14.5mn Out: Vydra (8mn), Anya (6mn), Wilson loan fee (>?) approx: 14mn Mel also allows us to go into a loss for the maximum amount permitted under FFP and he covers that with an equity injection. I think I read somewhere that the amount we can lose is £13mn a season? However, we are already losing around £10mn (G Star Ram could confirm) a season because our wage bill is so high. So that means we don't have much left to play with, I'm pretty sure the reason we loaned Martin for a fee with a balance in the summer (rather than a straight sale) is because we didn't want a surplus of cash this year; i.e. we wanted the cash to arrive in the next season so it could be used towards next season's transfers and help next season's FFP balance That, of course, was when we didn't think we needed any more players this season. I still don't think we need any more personally. But if we do, then I think the only way we can get new players in is if we either persuade Fulham to pay up early for Martin (maybe by giving them a discount of a £1mn). Sales of Grant, Russell etc might cover a Lansbury fee but won't get near a Rhodes fee. There is no surplus to play with right now of any sizeable amount (and all this stuff about players fees being amortised over the length of their contracts is right. But it applies to sales as well as buys and so cancels out) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 1 hour ago, King Kevin said: Mel insured the players so Butterfield and Johnson will not impact on FFP as much as the insurance for Hughes and Bryson will offset this. The insurance covered wages only, not transfer fees. The £10m fees put an extra £2.5m on our losses per season, plus any excess between BJ/JB and WH/CB wages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gritty Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 I would be more confident about getting these new signings if I'd heard rumours of someone other than Grant leaving? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 5 minutes ago, feisty said: This summer we were roughly flat on transfer spend. In: Albentosa (1mn), Hendrick (10.5mn), Loan fee for Martin (2.5mn), Shotton (500k), Grant loan fee (? 100k?), Bucko - nominal. Total: 14.5mn Out: Vydra (8mn), Anya (6mn), Wilson loan fee (>?) approx: 14mn Mel also allows us to go into a loss for the maximum amount permitted under FFP and he covers that with an equity injection. I think I read somewhere that the amount we can lose is £13mn a season? However, we are already losing around £10mn (G Star Ram could confirm) a season because our wage bill is so high. So that means we don't have much left to play with, I'm pretty sure the reason we loaned Martin for a fee with a balance in the summer (rather than a straight sale) is because we didn't want a surplus of cash this year; i.e. we wanted the cash to arrive in the next season so it could be used towards next season's transfers and help next season's FFP balance That, of course, was when we didn't think we needed any more players this season. I still don't think we need any more personally. But if we do, then I think the only way we can get new players in is if we either persuade Fulham to pay up early for Martin (maybe by giving them a discount of a £1mn). Sales of Grant, Russell etc might cover a Lansbury fee but won't get near a Rhodes fee. There is no surplus to play with right now of any sizeable amount (and all this stuff about players fees being amortised over the length of their contracts is right. But it applies to sales as well as buys and so cancels out) There is a difference between accounting losses and FFP losses and I am not aware that this can be calculated just by looking at the accounts. I also believe there is a limit on the equity injection available to offset against losses. Got £5m in my head but could be way off here. Since the last accounts, I would estimate out net transfer spend to be around £25m. Accounts say our transfer fees are paid over 4 years so that is circa £6m per year plus the wages of those players. Doesn't take a genius to estimate how much out losses have increased since June 2015. With not much scope for increasing out income, it was no surprise to see us finally cashing in on some of our assets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-Ram Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 Can we not just loan him with a view to buy at the end of the season? a loan would suit us. Rhodes is a quality championship player but i reckon he isnt prem gravy, like a nugent. Paying boro a mil or so to loan until the end of the season is worth it if he gets is out of the division Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddie Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 6 hours ago, G STAR RAM said: Whilst true from an FFP perspective, from a cash flow perspective unless the fee for Hendrick is all received up front, there is no surplus cash available for New signings. I was only speaking from a FFP perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddie Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 49 minutes ago, feisty said: I would be more confident about getting these new signings if I'd heard rumours of someone other than Grant leaving? Rumours are unreliable bullshit intended to sell papers or encourage clicks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramsbottom Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 This & the Lansbury rumour score a 9 on the Transfer Bu11sh1t-ometer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derbyram1983 Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 How can his value go up? They buy him for £9 he doesn't get a chance to prove himself in the premier league and now his value is £12m its bull Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ambitious Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 8 minutes ago, Derbyram1983 said: How can his value go up? They buy him for £9 he doesn't get a chance to prove himself in the premier league and now his value is £12m its bull Middlesbrough played a blinder signing him last season. He scored the goals that ultimately won them the points that got them promoted. The value of him as a player at this level is in his ever-consistent goal scoring record. I quite frankly don't give a monkeys whether he can play in the Premier League at this stage. We haven't been a premier league club for nearly 10 years. If we get there and he can't make the jump, it's likely his vale will still be high due to his goal scoring record. Championship clubs will line up to buy him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toddy Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 4 minutes ago, Ambitious said: Middlesbrough played a blinder signing him last season. He scored the goals that ultimately won them the points that got them promoted. The value of him as a player at this level is in his ever-consistent goal scoring record. I quite frankly don't give a monkeys whether he can play in the Premier League at this stage. We haven't been a premier league club for nearly 10 years. If we get there and he can't make the jump, it's likely his vale will still be high due to his goal scoring record. Championship clubs will line up to buy him. Completely agree, to be honest if he gets the goals that gets us promotion, we would need another 6 or 7 players anyway, as we are currently not good enough for the Prem. But we can worry about that in the summer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harrowram Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 Scott Hogan last week, Rhodes this week. Afobe next week? All paper talk. what about Blackman? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coneheadjohn Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 If Rhodes is £12 million I think we need to renegotiate on the Chris Martin deal. Martin and 3 million for Rhodes....I think we've had our pants took down.(can't be right). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toddy Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 5 minutes ago, Harrowram said: Scott Hogan last week, Rhodes this week. Afobe next week? All paper talk. what about Blackman? Blackman who? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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