Chris Martin - Signed for Fulham

[kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong]

3 minutes ago, hintonsboots said:

He's not coming back .. end of story. Please can we come to terms with it and move on. 

so hes definitely not coming back at all?...not even at the end of the season?

wow,glad someones ITK

you could have told us earlier and stopped all the messing about

 

[brady1993]

3 minutes ago, McLovin said:

Yes I think we should accept that people have different opinions. Chris Martin fans aren't brainwashed idiots who have their heads up his arse just like non-Chris Martin fans are not trolling  Neanderthals. This is one of those debates where people will not change their minds, no matter how persuasive the other side is.

Whilst this is a debate that has severely derailed several times and largely become a case of people shouting over each other. However I do believe that there is interesting points to discuss without entirely clear cut answers. Personally I think sometimes (and with this issue it does seem more prevalent than most) people are just dismissing what others are saying on a 'I'm right and I know I'm right and that's all that matters' basis or posting without really considering the issues at hand leading to bad discussion and eventual derailment. Personally @McLovin I believe you have brought up some interesting points in this discussion and whilst I largely don't agree with your conclusions your rationale had given me food for thought.  

[angieram]

19 hours ago, Derby_EnglandLoyal said:

1032 pages for GT. 

Although if Martin isn't back by next Tuesday this thread potentially has another 5 months to run. Plenty of time for a  new record, especially with @toddy's post rate in here. 

[Sexydadbod]

19 minutes ago, brady1993 said:

Whilst this is a debate that has severely derailed several times and largely become a case of people shouting over each other. However I do believe that there is interesting points to discuss without entirely clear cut answers. Personally I think sometimes (and with this issue it does seem more prevalent than most) people are just dismissing what others are saying on a 'I'm right and I know I'm right and that's all that matters' basis or posting without really considering the issues at hand leading to bad discussion and eventual derailment. Personally @McLovin I believe you have brought up some interesting points in this discussion and whilst I largely don't agree with your conclusions your rationale had given me food for thought.  

Thank you Brady , that's very nice of you to say

[KBB]

Is he back yet?

[Philmycock]

1 hour ago, KBB said:

Is he back yet?

He ain't coming back, Uri Geller's done something to his brain, it's over. 

Thanks Mr Pratson.

[brady1993]

1 hour ago, McLovin said:

Thank you Brady , that's very nice of you to say

And now to convince you of why you were wrong in a couple of your big posts from yesterday that I've been meaning to reply to .

[brady1993]

22 hours ago, McLovin said:

Depends McClaren wants. I personally think that McClaren wants to eventually turn us into a 'mini Liverpool' who harass teams from the front, combined with the Dutch 4-3-3 way. In order to achieve this, Martin may not be the first choice, like Stuuridge isn't first choice for Liverpool. Of course we can't do that at the moment because of the lack of players available so he has probably had to put his plans on hold.

I agree with all this here in principal. However the reason why Sturridge isn't first choice is not the same reason as why you are arguing Martin wouldn't be ideal for that style of football. Do you agree that the first thing required in that central role is fantastic link-up play (That is the reason that I think Klopp favors Firmino over Sturridge) ? Personally, I think (as daft as it may sound) that all other qualities you'd want in a striker (pace, finishing, physical presence.....) are all secondary to can they reliably link up to the midfield in McClaren's system. And as lovely as it would be to have a Martin with supreme athletic ability, I'm not convinced you can find that player that will 

A) Come to a championship side

B) Won't cost a serious amount of money.

See I'm not sure there are many (if any) better strikers at helping link the play up than Martin at this level and any who can would be costly. Plus there is always the risk with any new player of them not working out for whatever. Personally the only striker that I can think of that might not be too costly and would probably be an improvement on Martin (take into account what I've said previously, it's no good buying a possibly better strike who is just going to run in behind) is McCormack. However he'd obviously be a massive gamble considering his recent problems, his age and his assumed large wages.

22 hours ago, McLovin said:

Have to agree with Mackworth Ram in some aspects, I think a lot of fans are living on nostalgia regarding Martin. Sure he had some great times but he also had some stinking awful times as well. At times at last season he couldn't trap cement. Whenever we come up against the truly best defenders in the league, I know that Martin will lose the battle every time.

That's the thing though, how many of those 'stinking awful' performances came under Clement when the style of football was radically different to what McClaren wants to build towards ? I disagree with your final statement regarding Martin playing against the best defenders, I believe @cannable has posted a couple of times that his record against top sides is actually pretty good and I will let his work on this front stand as my counterargument (later I'll try and dig up the exact post). What you've said there could also be attributed to Ince last season, who also was only 'ok' by his standards, but reunite him with McClaren and suddenly he's a force to be reckoned with. I believe there is more than a good chance that it will be the same case with Martin. I personally don't find it surprising that we aren't creating as much as we were doing when he was playing because not only was he our top scorer, he created more chances than any other derby player in the past two seasons and was the third most creative in 13/14. Is he perfect ? Of course not, he could stand to be more physical and is the most athletic but what he is the (probably) cheapest and most reliable fix to our striker problems.

[cannable]

@brady1993 funnily enough I responded to that McLovin post you quoted with Martin's stats against the three teams with the best defensive records in each respective season. Eight goals, four assists and one shot bouncing off the crossbar and bouncing in off the 'keepers back in eighteen appearences - one of which Martin lasted fourteen minutes and another of which he received a bullshit red-card.

[brady1993]

22 hours ago, McLovin said:

 

Don't want to turn this into a Pearson thread but I think eventually he would turned us into an effective counter attacking team. In hindsight he was a bit of a numpty playing Bryson and Hughes as the two centre mids. Had he been able to complete his job it would have looked a lot better for us, it couldn't have gone much worse!

 

I guess more unlikely things have happened but I really don't think Pearson would have ever turned it around. For my money, it was the single worst management performance I've seen supporting Derby and he made me seriously question whether all the time I spend watching matches, thinking about the club and on this forum was worth it. He was indecisive over systems and transfers in the summer, he alienated some of our most talented players, his transfer activity was questionable at best (was he seriously banking on a Man Utd loanee and a striker that has only ever been effective when paired with a target man to fire us up the league) he had questionable policies regarding things like 'who is fittest plays', he forced a system on a squad that was clearly unsuited to it and demonstrated for my money a real lack of understanding of why 'his' system wasn't working. 

Another thing is the only scenario where he turns it around somewhat is not one I wanted to witness. He'd have sold Hughes, Ince and probably a fair few others in January for cut price deals because they didn't fit what he wanted to do. Then best case scenario is that he gets the players in required to execute the system and we stabilise in mid table for the season or you know they don't gel and we get relegated.

Pearson was an unmitigated disaster and I'm not sure he could have done a worse job if he was willfully negligent.

[brady1993]

10 minutes ago, cannable said:

@brady1993 funnily enough I responded to that McLovin post you quoted with Martin's stats against the three teams with the best defensive records in each respective season. Eight goals, four assists and one shot bouncing off the crossbar and bouncing in off the 'keepers back in eighteen appearences - one of which Martin lasted fourteen minutes and another of which he received a bullshit red-card.

I knew I'd seen you mention it recently .

[hintonsboots]

3 hours ago, kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong said:

so hes definitely not coming back at all?...not even at the end of the season?

wow,glad someones ITK

you could have told us earlier and stopped all the messing about

 

You would have more chance of him coming back if he was marooned on Mars. If we get promoted this season would you really want him back ? He's not good enough for the Prem. I didn't say I was ITK , just my opinion, but when the window shuts and he is still in London you can give it a rest til the end of the season and change your avatar, which I think is brilliant by the way before you have a Cwissy breakdown.

[kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong]

18 minutes ago, hintonsboots said:

You would have more chance of him coming back if he was marooned on Mars. If we get promoted this season would you really want him back ? He's not good enough for the Prem. I didn't say I was ITK , just my opinion, but when the window shuts and he is still in London you can give it a rest til the end of the season and change your avatar, which I think is brilliant by the way before you have a Cwissy breakdown.

lol......and in answer to your question,in my opinion he is good enough for the premiership within the right team....its not about just one player,its about how they gel together and when derby eventually gel,they will be more than good enough.

and no,the avatar stays thank you very much..but thanks for the advice,

[Kernow]

31 minutes ago, hintonsboots said:

You would have more chance of him coming back if he was marooned on Mars. If we get promoted this season would you really want him back ? He's not good enough for the Prem. I didn't say I was ITK , just my opinion, but when the window shuts and he is still in London you can give it a rest til the end of the season and change your avatar, which I think is brilliant by the way before you have a Cwissy breakdown.

How can you possibly say he's not good enough for the PL? What do you base that upon? His 4 appearances when he was in his early twenties? His playing style? There's absolutely nothing to base the opinion on that he would have no chance of succeeding in the top flight. I'm not saying he would definitely thrive but you can't say he definitely won't. Despite popular opinion, you don't need to have an abundance of pace to be a successful striker. He's got a good touch, good finisher and has a good footballing brain.

Jamie Vardy had 2 seasons in league football when he was promoted to the PL. He scored 20 goals in 63 games. Leicester fans may have said he wasn't good enough for the PL.

Grant Holt had been a lower league striker and had one good season in the Championship when he was promoted to the PL. He scored 15 goals in his debut season. I think most Derby fans would be pretty happy with 15 goals from Martin in the PL next year.

Rickie Lambert had one season in the Championship before being promoted to the PL. In his first two seasons he scored a total of 28 league goals. 15 in his first, 13 in his second. Again, I think Derby fans would be happy with that return from Martin.

The idea that he couldn't succeed in the PL is not a fact like some people try to state it to be. It's an opinion often fuelled by an irrational dislike for CM, for whatever reason.

[Millenniumram]

Somebody really outta change this thread title to 'Chris Martin- recalled by Derby county' just to see what happens...

[toddy]

8 minutes ago, Millenniumram said:

Somebody really outta change this thread title to 'Chris Martin- recalled by Derby county' just to see what happens...

No this thread should be really  retitled how to build a team around a player who know longer plays for us!

It is a real shame that fans on here think that the 10 outfield players at this club can only be successful if they play with a hold up striker in front of them?

What our midfielders are incapable of playing a different system, they can only really improve by playing with a hold up striker?

If Martin came back and then gets an injury, gets a ban, what happens then, do we look for a Martin 2?

 

 

[Millenniumram]

1 minute ago, toddy said:

No this thread should be really  retitled how to build a team around a player who know longer plays for us!

It is a real shame that fans on here think that the 10 outfield players at this club can only be successful if they play with a hold up striker in front of them?

What our midfielders are incapable of playing a different system, they can only really improve by playing with a hold up striker?

If Martin came back and then gets an injury, gets a ban, what happens then, do we look for a Martin 2?

 

 

No ones saying that's the only way of success, the fact we've been doing fairly well with bent up front shows that we can function without Martin. However there's no denying he makes the team better and hasn't been properly replaced. I was one of those who thought his time was up and it was time to replace him, however we appear to have got rid of him without replacing him, which isn't helping anything. With no real time to find a replacement properly and bed someone in in January, the best option is clearly to try and get Martin back, who's proven to be successful. Even if he's not back as a key player, it can't hurt to have him in the squad surely!?

[hintonsboots]

29 minutes ago, Kernow said:

How can you possibly say he's not good enough for the PL? What do you base that upon? His 4 appearances when he was in his early twenties? His playing style? There's absolutely nothing to base the opinion on that he would have no chance of succeeding in the top flight. I'm not saying he would definitely thrive but you can't say he definitely won't. Despite popular opinion, you don't need to have an abundance of pace to be a successful striker. He's got a good touch, good finisher and has a good footballing brain.

Jamie Vardy had 2 seasons in league football when he was promoted to the PL. He scored 20 goals in 63 games. Leicester fans may have said he wasn't good enough for the PL.

Grant Holt had been a lower league striker and had one good season in the Championship when he was promoted to the PL. He scored 15 goals in his debut season. I think most Derby fans would be pretty happy with 15 goals from Martin in the PL next year.

Rickie Lambert had one season in the Championship before being promoted to the PL. In his first two seasons he scored a total of 28 league goals. 15 in his first, 13 in his second. Again, I think Derby fans would be happy with that return from Martin.

The idea that he couldn't succeed in the PL is not a fact like some people try to state it to be. It's an opinion often fuelled by an irrational dislike for CM, for whatever reason.

Bit of a weak argument Kernow, saying you don't need pace to be successful in the Prem and then using Vardy as an example. CM has been a great player for Derby, but we need to move on. His lack of pace and movement and constant falling over which refs to state the obvious don't fall for anymore, means he won't cut it in the top flight. Things have moved on since the days of Grant Holt, the Prem is awash with dosh and most teams have quality defenders, often international standard. Do you think CM has excelled for Scotland against top quality defenders ?

[Kernow]

7 minutes ago, hintonsboots said:

Bit of a weak argument Kernow, saying you don't need pace to be successful in the Prem and then using Vardy as an example. CM has been a great player for Derby, but we need to move on. His lack of pace and movement and constant falling over which refs to state the obvious don't fall for anymore, means he won't cut it in the top flight. Things have moved on since the days of Grant Holt, the Prem is awash with dosh and most teams have quality defenders, often international standard. Do you think CM has excelled for Scotland against top quality defenders ?

I used the example of Holt and Lambert too to show that players without pace have gone straight into the PL later in their career and done a good job. Vardy has pace, yes, but there's a lot of pacey strikers who have gone to the PL and not succeeded, so pace isn't a prerequisite for success.

How far has the PL actually moved on since Lambert and Holt played for Southampton and Norwich? We're talking 3/4 years for Lambert and about 6 years for Holt. You look at the top teams and their performance in Europe is actually going downhill. The PL has become more open too. Fees have increased for defenders, has quality? I'm not too sure. Look at Man City, spent huge amounts on Otamendi, Mangala, Stones - none of them really 'world class' defenders.

Chris Martin hasn't excelled for Scotland, no, but his manager obviously sees something in him. He's playing ahead of players like Rhodes and McCormack who many would definitely like to see here. Nobody in the Scotland really excels anyway, so you can't really use that as an indicator to show he wouldn't do well in the PL.

He might flop if he gets the chance to be a first choice striker in the PL, but he might excel. We have absolutely nothing to base that upon. I think he's proven himself enough at the level below to at least not be written off before he's started anyway.

[cannable]

53 minutes ago, hintonsboots said:

Bit of a weak argument Kernow, saying you don't need pace to be successful in the Prem and then using Vardy as an example. CM has been a great player for Derby, but we need to move on. His lack of pace and movement and constant falling over which refs to state the obvious don't fall for anymore, means he won't cut it in the top flight. Things have moved on since the days of Grant Holt, the Prem is awash with dosh and most teams have quality defenders, often international standard. Do you think CM has excelled for Scotland against top quality defenders ?

Wes Morgan just won the division