duncanjwitham

Passing around the back for possession sake is not what I am talkng about. I enjoy passing football, and you don't need to be the greatest footballers in the world to play decent passing football through the final two thirds of the pitch. 
If you find Man City boring as hell, and find Warneball (3 or 4 passes, lose it, chase hard to get it back) entertaining, we really have nothing in common when it comes to appreciating good football.

The way I see it, you're never going to get a player that's very good at everything.  You get some players that are bang average at everything (jack of all trades, master of none types), you get players that have some strengths and some glaring weaknesses, plus all the variations between those.  And the further you go down the leagues you go, the more extreme those things get. At prem level, your bang average players are still pretty good at everything (Jordan Henderson is a good example, I think - he's a decent all-rounder, but not really spectacular at anything).  And likewise, players at the other extreme are going to have a lot of strengths and only a few weaknesses.  
However at League One level, if you want a player that's really good at one or 2 things, you are going to have to accept that he's bad a lot of other stuff.  If you want a quick winger that can cross, you have to accept that he'll probably be injury-prone, or inconsistent, or lazy, or old, or can't finish, or can't pass or whatever.  A player that's good at all that stuff simply won't be available to League One clubs, he'll be playing at a higher level.
How that relates to us is if you make "works extremely hard" an absolute requirement for all signings, you are reducing the pool of potential players significantly.  You are instantly disregarding the likes of Chris Martin (I know, I know, he's just an easy example to use). If you want a striker that works extremely hard, you are going to have to accept that maybe he doesn't score goals or maybe he can't hold the ball up or whatever.  And that's why we're ending up with players like Conor Washington - he meets the one, fundamental requirement, and the rest will have to do.  And it's possibly why we're finding it harder to sign other players - there just aren't that many players available who are good at crossing/finishing/passing/whatever and also run themselves into the ground every week, and they're in high demand.

The way I see it, you're never going to get a player that's very good at everything.  You get some players that are bang average at everything (jack of all trades, master of none types), you get players that have some strengths and some glaring weaknesses, plus all the variations between those.  And the further you go down the leagues you go, the more extreme those things get. At prem level, your bang average players are still pretty good at everything (Jordan Henderson is a good example, I think - he's a decent all-rounder, but not really spectacular at anything).  And likewise, players at the other extreme are going to have a lot of strengths and only a few weaknesses.  
However at League One level, if you want a player that's really good at one or 2 things, you are going to have to accept that he's bad a lot of other stuff.  If you want a quick winger that can cross, you have to accept that he'll probably be injury-prone, or inconsistent, or lazy, or old, or can't finish, or can't pass or whatever.  A player that's good at all that stuff simply won't be available to League One clubs, he'll be playing at a higher level.
How that relates to us is if you make "works extremely hard" an absolute requirement for all signings, you are reducing the pool of potential players significantly.  You are instantly disregarding the likes of Chris Martin (I know, I know, he's just an easy example to use). If you want a striker that works extremely hard, you are going to have to accept that maybe he doesn't score goals or maybe he can't hold the ball up or whatever.  And that's why we're ending up with players like Conor Washington - he meets the one, fundamental requirement, and the rest will have to do.  And it's possibly why we're finding it harder to sign other players - there just aren't that many players available who are good at crossing/finishing/passing/whatever and also run themselves into the ground every week, and they're in high demand.

The way I see it, you're never going to get a player that's very good at everything.  You get some players that are bang average at everything (jack of all trades, master of none types), you get players that have some strengths and some glaring weaknesses, plus all the variations between those.  And the further you go down the leagues you go, the more extreme those things get. At prem level, your bang average players are still pretty good at everything (Jordan Henderson is a good example, I think - he's a decent all-rounder, but not really spectacular at anything).  And likewise, players at the other extreme are going to have a lot of strengths and only a few weaknesses.  
However at League One level, if you want a player that's really good at one or 2 things, you are going to have to accept that he's bad a lot of other stuff.  If you want a quick winger that can cross, you have to accept that he'll probably be injury-prone, or inconsistent, or lazy, or old, or can't finish, or can't pass or whatever.  A player that's good at all that stuff simply won't be available to League One clubs, he'll be playing at a higher level.
How that relates to us is if you make "works extremely hard" an absolute requirement for all signings, you are reducing the pool of potential players significantly.  You are instantly disregarding the likes of Chris Martin (I know, I know, he's just an easy example to use). If you want a striker that works extremely hard, you are going to have to accept that maybe he doesn't score goals or maybe he can't hold the ball up or whatever.  And that's why we're ending up with players like Conor Washington - he meets the one, fundamental requirement, and the rest will have to do.  And it's possibly why we're finding it harder to sign other players - there just aren't that many players available who are good at crossing/finishing/passing/whatever and also run themselves into the ground every week, and they're in high demand.

The way I see it, you're never going to get a player that's very good at everything.  You get some players that are bang average at everything (jack of all trades, master of none types), you get players that have some strengths and some glaring weaknesses, plus all the variations between those.  And the further you go down the leagues you go, the more extreme those things get. At prem level, your bang average players are still pretty good at everything (Jordan Henderson is a good example, I think - he's a decent all-rounder, but not really spectacular at anything).  And likewise, players at the other extreme are going to have a lot of strengths and only a few weaknesses.  
However at League One level, if you want a player that's really good at one or 2 things, you are going to have to accept that he's bad a lot of other stuff.  If you want a quick winger that can cross, you have to accept that he'll probably be injury-prone, or inconsistent, or lazy, or old, or can't finish, or can't pass or whatever.  A player that's good at all that stuff simply won't be available to League One clubs, he'll be playing at a higher level.
How that relates to us is if you make "works extremely hard" an absolute requirement for all signings, you are reducing the pool of potential players significantly.  You are instantly disregarding the likes of Chris Martin (I know, I know, he's just an easy example to use). If you want a striker that works extremely hard, you are going to have to accept that maybe he doesn't score goals or maybe he can't hold the ball up or whatever.  And that's why we're ending up with players like Conor Washington - he meets the one, fundamental requirement, and the rest will have to do.  And it's possibly why we're finding it harder to sign other players - there just aren't that many players available who are good at crossing/finishing/passing/whatever and also run themselves into the ground every week, and they're in high demand.

The suggestion that sparked all this was that our wingbacks would be playing like traditional wingers most of the time, pushed right up and staying wide.  That's not what modern fullbacks do, they have to support a winger, with the option to overlap when the game allows it, but they're still fundamentally playing as fullbacks.  So the majority of the time when we lose the ball out wide, the fullback is in behind covering.  Yes, sometimes it will break down and there will be gaps in behind, but in the setup people are suggesting we will be playing, if we lose the ball there's 80 yards of open space for the opposition to pour into *every* time.

I just find this such a revisionist view, and one that only really started to be voiced when it became apparent McGoldrick was leaving.  That's not to say there weren't  some people having such thoughts, but it wasn't a widespread view.
Prior to that it was all about who we could get to complement him and take the workload off, nothing about us not sharing the play around as a tactic, or because of his presence.
The only reason our system 'revolved' around him was because he was the only one up there with the skill to get hold of the ball and make something happen - It wasn't an intentional ploy to make him central to everything, it's just that if we played the ball up to anyone else it would be wasted or come bouncing back.
Mendes-Laing was knackered and became ineffective (still saw loads of the ball), Barkhuizen jaded from finding himself mostly out of the team, Collins was never in the right place (more interested in hugging defenders), Dobbin again saw a lot of the ball, had plenty of chances but was massively wasteful in front of goal, Sibley was shifted around, Knight usually deployed at RB/RWB, White lightweight and ineffective. We didn't really have anyone in the squad capable of running in behind a defence once Osula left.
Removing McGoldrick from the team would have solved none of those issues. Having him in the team didn't see others starved of the ball, if anything it was the opposite - he'd win it back himself and bring others into play, without him it was pinball. His presence didn't force Collins to stand in the wrong place whenever we crossed the ball in.
It's all just seems very convenient, and strikes me more as a phrase I saw someone use the other day - copium.
Putting that aside...
We may well be that we end up a more balanced team this season, but we're nowhere near achieving that yet. Where is this extra variety? The only thing we've really added to the team in an attacking sense is the wingbacks, and they're really just doing the same job NML was doing last season (just from both sides now), and maybe some extra pressing from Washington.
The other players we've been properly linked with in attack (other than Ladapo but it doesn't seem likely we get him) have all been fox-in-the-box types, upgrades on Collins - there's no added variety there, and we no longer have anyone in the squad who'll drop deep and offer the extra element of control McGoldrick did.

But if they drop back that far, then all of your attacking threat is gone, if you're building your team around lots of crosses from the wide players.  You can't simultaneously have players pushed right up and sat right back.  And if you want players literally sprinting from goal line to goal line to try and do that (which is what I believe Warne thinks should happen), then you're just going to end up with players so tired that they don't do either job properly.  If Jason Knight isn't capable of running around enough to do the job you want, then I'm not sure anyone is. 
And for what it's worth, Elder has never played wingback in his career (as far as I can see), and the Peterborough fans all seem to think Ward is far better as a winger than a wingback 🤷‍♂️.

That's 100% what I'm expecting to see, although I think you're being a bit ambitious with step 5.

That's 100% what I'm expecting to see, although I think you're being a bit ambitious with step 5.

That's 100% what I'm expecting to see, although I think you're being a bit ambitious with step 5.

That's 100% what I'm expecting to see, although I think you're being a bit ambitious with step 5.

You can't say stuff like that round here mate.  Warne is an absolute tactical genius, with the best tactics. And also, we don't need tactics, having tactics makes you predictable or something so we definitely won't have tactics.  Yeah, both of those. At the same time.  In Warne we believe.

That's 100% what I'm expecting to see, although I think you're being a bit ambitious with step 5.

That's probably about the best combo you can put together from the 3 of them, and it's not exactly a massively exciting one.  Everyone runs around a lot and hope they forget to mark one of our strikers... 🤷‍♂️
There's still no real physical presence to play off, no cleverness to open up teams, no pace to stretch teams, no anything at all really.

That's 100% what I'm expecting to see, although I think you're being a bit ambitious with step 5.

That's 100% what I'm expecting to see, although I think you're being a bit ambitious with step 5.

The thing is, if we're playing some kind of front 3 (whether that's a 3412, 3421, 343 or whatever), we've already got Collins, Washington, Rhodes (presumably), Barkhuizen, Sibley and NML for those positions.  Plus Ward can play as a winger in a 3, plus the youngsters who've played in preseason.  That's a lot of bodies for 3 positions already.  I don't see why we'd go and get Rhodes if we're going to get another out-and-out striker next week.

That's probably about the best combo you can put together from the 3 of them, and it's not exactly a massively exciting one.  Everyone runs around a lot and hope they forget to mark one of our strikers... 🤷‍♂️
There's still no real physical presence to play off, no cleverness to open up teams, no pace to stretch teams, no anything at all really.

We were still paying his wages.  He signed a new contract at Everton in Jan 2022, having already played for their first-team, so he was probably on fairly decent money (for his age, status etc), of which we would have been paying some proportion.  Obviously we have no idea what those wages (or the proportion of them) were, but in terms of how often he actually affected games, was he worth £3k a week? £5k? £7k?  Probably not if he's towards the higher end of that list.

If he'd played every minute in the league of last season, he would have scored 18 (at the rate he was scoring at).  So him scoring 20 is not beyond crazy, if we're playing more to his strengths this year.
(Obviously over-simplistic stat is over-simplistic etc etc.)

Everybody says we need to spread the goals around more, not just have one player score them all.  What people don't seem to be realising is that Conor Washington solves that problem in one fell swoop. We simply have the strikers score less goals, and then by definition we spread them around more.  It's genius! 😉

Everybody says we need to spread the goals around more, not just have one player score them all.  What people don't seem to be realising is that Conor Washington solves that problem in one fell swoop. We simply have the strikers score less goals, and then by definition we spread them around more.  It's genius! 😉

Everybody says we need to spread the goals around more, not just have one player score them all.  What people don't seem to be realising is that Conor Washington solves that problem in one fell swoop. We simply have the strikers score less goals, and then by definition we spread them around more.  It's genius! 😉

If he'd played every minute in the league of last season, he would have scored 18 (at the rate he was scoring at).  So him scoring 20 is not beyond crazy, if we're playing more to his strengths this year.
(Obviously over-simplistic stat is over-simplistic etc etc.)