Palestine

[Alph]

26 minutes ago, jono said:

I don’t agree with everything you say but you make good points. Also, to give you a salute you say “that is my belief” so very much better than saying “I am right”

I have huge sympathy for the Palestinians especially when Netinyahoo (spelling 🤪) is so bellicose and to me at least, not very likeable or statesmanlike. Yet on the other hand if you lived in a country surrounded by every neighbour who really would rather you didn’t exist it does provide some background to what makes Israel so fixed in maintaining or even expanding their position. And, like it or not, with or without American help, Isreal has built a functioning prosperous nation that pays more than lip service to democracy. They are a big animal permanently backed in to a corner. Hamas has no interest in coaxing them out it would rather poke them with a sharp stick at the expense of the Palestinian people.

 

13 minutes ago, Mostyn6 said:

your points are well made and you're clearly a humanist above all else! Don't worry that someone doesn't get you.

Thanks! 

If I come across like a ranting lunatic it's because I type whatever comes into my head. I'm not like a confrontational person who like overpowers people in a real life debate. It might be just how I come across on here because I get carried away when making my point and don't structure anything if you know what I mean?

[Comrade 86]

9 minutes ago, Alpha said:

 

Thanks! 

If I come across like a ranting lunatic it's because I type whatever comes into my head. I'm not like a confrontational person who like overpowers people in a real life debate. It might be just how I come across on here because I get carried away when making my point and don't structure anything if you know what I mean?

You've said nothing wrong mate, just folk wanting to take offence. Ignore it. 

[ramit]

13 hours ago, Crewton said:

How to defeat the most technologically sophisticated surveillance system in the world - don't use technology. This isn't a proven theory, but it's plausible.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/07/secret-hamas-attack-orders-israel-gaza-7-october

I don't doubt that the common Hamas fighters were ignorant of the plans for that day, but Israeli intelligence infiltrated the top echelon of Hamas in Gaza long ago, it would be silly to think otherwise.  On top of that, the response was way too slow to be believable, unless you mean to state that the Israeli military and intelligence is the most incompetent of it's kind in the world. 

I understand that it's hard to accept that a government would sacrifice it's own people in the hundreds to achieve political ends, an excuse to justify the mass killing and invasion we see today, but this is what I firmly believe to be true and the evidence does decidedly point to it. 

We may like to think that government officials are basically normal people with basic human considerations, but we also know from experience that power corrupts, turning men to monsters.

[ariotofmyown]

1 hour ago, ramit said:

I understand that it's hard to accept that a government would sacrifice it's own people in the hundreds to achieve political ends, an excuse to justify the mass killing and invasion we see today, but this is what I firmly believe to be true and the evidence does decidedly point to it. 

I think that paragraph neatly sums up how people get sucked into conspiracy theories.

You are believing in something utterly mindblowing and think there is actual evidence that decidedly points to it! You can't mix up beliefs and evidence.

Why not start from something far less outlandish. Israeli took their eye off the ball from a security perspective because they were busy dealing with loads of internal strife caused by a useless, populist government. Populists cannot govern, they can only campaign. Simple slogans do not solve complex problems.

They also stupidly allowed Hamas to become stronger, possibly to keep moderate Palestinians out of power. 

These conditions clearly were suitable to allow Hamas to carry out their deadly attacks.

The issue now is the disaster unfolding in Gaza. Conspiracy theories are probably designed to make people look elsewhere!

[Crewton]

1 hour ago, ramit said:

I don't doubt that the common Hamas fighters were ignorant of the plans for that day, but Israeli intelligence infiltrated the top echelon of Hamas in Gaza long ago, it would be silly to think otherwise.  On top of that, the response was way too slow to be believable, unless you mean to state that the Israeli military and intelligence is the most incompetent of it's kind in the world. 

I understand that it's hard to accept that a government would sacrifice it's own people in the hundreds to achieve political ends, an excuse to justify the mass killing and invasion we see today, but this is what I firmly believe to be true and the evidence does decidedly point to it. 

We may like to think that government officials are basically normal people with basic human considerations, but we also know from experience that power corrupts, turning men to monsters.

Of course Israel has occasionally managed to infiltrate Hamas, but spies don't tend to last very long in Gaza because it's a closed society. Their most successful double-agent was the son of a Hamas founder who lasted 10 years in post before he was sprung. Even if they had one there in the lead up to October 7th, it's by no means certain that they'd have been in the right place to give much in the way of a warning. The Israeli intelligence services knew that there was an increased level of activity, but it appears that their information was too general to pinpoint a specific attack. Like the 1973 attack by Arab states, the Hamas attack caught Israel by surprise on the Yom Kippur public holiday. Were the defenders short-handed because of the holiday, not anticipating an incursion of this magnitude from Gaza? Or was it a conspiracy from the top as you say?

Surprise offensives that catch the defenders napping are not uncommon throughout recent history : the Ardennes Offensive, the Tet Offensive, the Argentine invasion of the Falklands.....it's a long list where intelligence services failed to join the dots with the information they had.

I'm guessing that a conspiracy to sacrifice their own people (including IDF personnel too) is something that many seem eager to believe in. I think it's something that is relatively easy to pull off in a dictatorship, but much harder to do in a broad and flimsy coalition government, even if it's run, as in this case, by a desperate and deeply flawed man. To date, the theory is only supported by circumstantial evidence (like most conspiracy theories it's not unfair to say) and so, until I see something verifiably conclusive from a source that isn't tainted, I'm sticking with the "gross incompetence/negligence" theory.

 

[Highgate]

9 hours ago, jono said:

But it is a bit like democracy isn’t it ! Flawed .. but nothing better has come along. I think we are going to disagree on this one. India, Africa and so many others have had a very long time to sort out the “mess” but are repeating the mistakes of the empire under their own steam and doing a fine job with a different canvas. 

Yeah, but I don't think you can feel sorry for anything that's founded on exploitation and the systematic extraction of wealth from other nations.  But I agree, when you remove the Imperial tyranny, often the anarchy that's left behind is just as bad.  And domestic populations are often able to mess things up all on their own, without any help from Empires. 

[ramit]

9 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

I think that paragraph neatly sums up how people get sucked into conspiracy theories.

You are believing in something utterly mindblowing and think there is actual evidence that decidedly points to it! You can't mix up beliefs and evidence.

Why not start from something far less outlandish. Israeli took their eye off the ball from a security perspective because they were busy dealing with loads of internal strife caused by a useless, populist government. Populists cannot govern, they can only campaign. Simple slogans do not solve complex problems.

They also stupidly allowed Hamas to become stronger, possibly to keep moderate Palestinians out of power. 

These conditions clearly were suitable to allow Hamas to carry out their deadly attacks.

The issue now is the disaster unfolding in Gaza. Conspiracy theories are probably designed to make people look elsewhere!

Conspiracies happen all the time, powerful people get together and concoct a common plan for their gain.  It is amazing to me how the greater public has conveniently eaten up any talk of conspiracy from high circles as nonsense, that all conspiracy theories are to be dismissed as lunacy.

The evidence points to an inside job, not the official story.  Those who claim the official story is correct must produce convincing evidence to support that story.  You are believing in something just as mind-blowing, that Israeli military and intelligence service is hopelessly incompetent, that the most monitored area in the world, wasn't really that monitored, that there was no forewarning of what was to come.

In the end who will gain?  Israel will take over the entire Gaza by the looks of it, is that in Palestinians interest or Israels?

Edited November 7, 2023 by ramit
Wording

[ramit]

8 hours ago, Crewton said:

Of course Israel has occasionally managed to infiltrate Hamas, but spies don't tend to last very long in Gaza because it's a closed society. Their most successful double-agent was the son of a Hamas founder who lasted 10 years in post before he was sprung. Even if they had one there in the lead up to October 7th, it's by no means certain that they'd have been in the right place to give much in the way of a warning. The Israeli intelligence services knew that there was an increased level of activity, but it appears that their information was too general to pinpoint a specific attack. Like the 1973 attack by Arab states, the Hamas attack caught Israel by surprise on the Yom Kippur public holiday. Were the defenders short-handed because of the holiday, not anticipating an incursion of this magnitude from Gaza? Or was it a conspiracy from the top as you say?

Surprise offensives that catch the defenders napping are not uncommon throughout recent history : the Ardennes Offensive, the Tet Offensive, the Argentine invasion of the Falklands.....it's a long list where intelligence services failed to join the dots with the information they had.

I'm guessing that a conspiracy to sacrifice their own people (including IDF personnel too) is something that many seem eager to believe in. I think it's something that is relatively easy to pull off in a dictatorship, but much harder to do in a broad and flimsy coalition government, even if it's run, as in this case, by a desperate and deeply flawed man. To date, the theory is only supported by circumstantial evidence (like most conspiracy theories it's not unfair to say) and so, until I see something verifiably conclusive from a source that isn't tainted, I'm sticking with the "gross incompetence/negligence" theory.

 

This took some time to plan, an Israeli spy would have ample time to contact control.  This is not 1973, high tech surveillance was not available then and Israel has the best in the world.  They also have a faithful ally in USA who supply them with any intelligence they may need, satellite info for instance.

We are on opposite ends on this matter, the evidence for gross incompetence is also circumstantial, but you choose to believe that, alright fair enough, thanks for a relatively civilized discourse on the question.

Edited November 7, 2023 by ramit
Wording

[Ram-Alf]

13 minutes ago, ramit said:

Conspiracies happen all the time, powerful people get together and concoct a common plan for their gain.  It is amazing to me how the greater public has conveniently eaten up any talk of conspiracy from high circles as nonsense, that all conspiracy theories are to be dismissed as lunacy.

Here in the UK we have files that can not be opened for 75/100 years after the event, Even then the Government of the day can shut this avenue down...conspiracy or very high profile persons involved.

During WW2 there was a Government department who employed "ancillaries", Groups of armed personnel who were ordered to kill their own citizens if Great Britain was ever invaded, As they knew too much about secret sites.

No deaths as Operation Sealion was postponed for Operation Barbarossa.    

[Eddie]

Why do people continue to believe in a god or creator?

It's insanity.

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

25 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Why do people continue to believe in a god or creator?

It's insanity.

If it gives them or family some comfort in their last bit of life I see no issue.  It's the forcing of beliefs on others that's the issue.  Not restricted to religion.

[ariotofmyown]

1 hour ago, ramit said:

Conspiracies happen all the time, powerful people get together and concoct a common plan for their gain.

Cool, if you could just list a few of the main confirmed conspiracies of the last 25 years or so, that would be great. I don't know much about them, so it would be good to know. Ideally the big ones please, something in the same ballpark as this Israel one please.

[jono]

1 hour ago, Highgate said:

Yeah, but I don't think you can feel sorry for anything that's founded on exploitation and the systematic extraction of wealth from other nations.  But I agree, when you remove the Imperial tyranny, often the anarchy that's left behind is just as bad.  And domestic populations are often able to mess things up all on their own, without any help from Empires. 

Exactly ! Which is why I rail against this revisionist history business when we are asked to apologise for the empire. Yes terrible things happened, it needs to be acknowledged, and yes we need to learn, do better on our watch, but take the hindsight critical eye always from it. It is history. No one alive today is to “blame” .. Consider Zimbabwe post empire, consider what African nations under their own recognisance are doing with China ? Consider India has a semblance of democracy because foundations were laid by the empire .. oh yes I won’t deny the advantageous terms the empire drew for itself, but lambasting it in the light of the times, past and present is fundamentally wrong. We just have to learn from it and do better. That is the obligation, not ritual humility of a nation whose current peoples took no part in it and gained no benefit from it. 

[Eddie]

26 minutes ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

If it gives them or family some comfort in their last bit of life I see no issue.  It's the forcing of beliefs on others that's the issue.  Not restricted to religion.

Every major war ever has had religion at the heart - or the periphery - of it.

What you are saying, though, is the only justification for religion.

"I don't want to die. I'm scared of ceasing to exist. I know - let's pretend there is a hereafter"

Edited November 7, 2023 by Eddie

[kevinhectoring]

22 hours ago, jono said:

kind of have sympathy for the old British Empire and it’s drawing of random ill considered straight lines

One of the lines is not straight it has a little kink in it where the Arabist from the foreign office got his finger in the way of the pencil. 

[kevinhectoring]

12 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Every major war ever has had religion at the heart - or the periphery - of it.

Religion. Or real estate (that’s what this one is ultimately about) . Or oil. Or communist/capitalist ideology. Or some guy being assassinated. Or something else.

But yes often religion 

[ramit]

9 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

Cool, if you could just list a few of the main confirmed conspiracies of the last 25 years or so, that would be great. I don't know much about them, so it would be good to know. Ideally the big ones please, something in the same ballpark as this Israel one please.

I could give you a very good example, but for two reasons I wont.  First, this is not an earnest request, second, do your own work.

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

1 hour ago, Eddie said:

Every major war ever has had religion at the heart - or the periphery - of it.

What you are saying, though, is the only justification for religion.

"I don't want to die. I'm scared of ceasing to exist. I know - let's pretend there is a hereafter"

A bit of a simplistic viewpoint to my mind.  I'm happy for people to believe-and many genuinely do-in what keeps them centred in life so long as I'm not bothered with it and it's kept to themselves rather than preached.

Anybody wants to believe in even older gods and spend their time at summer solstice wrapped in an orange bed sheet on a wicker trip that's fine as well. Whatever makes em happy.

[Eddie]

6 minutes ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

A bit of a simplistic viewpoint to my mind.  I'm happy for people to believe-and many genuinely do-in what keeps them centred in life so long as I'm not bothered with it and it's kept to themselves rather than preached.

Anybody wants to believe in even older gods and spend their time at summer solstice wrapped in an orange bed sheet on a wicker trip that's fine as well. Whatever makes em happy.

Just so long as they don't come to my house and try to engage me with their indoctrination mantra.

[Ram-Alf]

3 hours ago, Highgate said:

Yeah, but I don't think you can feel sorry for anything that's founded on exploitation and the systematic extraction of wealth from other nations.  But I agree, when you remove the Imperial tyranny, often the anarchy that's left behind is just as bad.  And domestic populations are often able to mess things up all on their own, without any help from Empires. 

How far back in time are we allowed to go concerning the exploitation of peoples, The Roman invasion of our land who they called Britain and the north Caledonia, Taking it's people and it's recourses, Or the Moors maybe who pillaged and took white slaves to north Africa, Should we seek reparations or just forget about it at it was a looooong time ago 😁