Palestine

[DarkFruitsRam7]

1 hour ago, Archied said:

Whilst I agree and understand your post I do question whether it does anything other than perpetuate division and a partisan feel ( I’m sure you don’t do this purposely) , in reply the next poster can come on and give examples that can’t be denied from the other side and back and forth back and forth ,

the atmosphere on our streets has honestly really concerned me since the start of this latest conflict and yet I’ve not really been able to square that feeling with the fact that I’m very very anti what’s going on in the Middle East and trying to work it out I’ve kind of come to the conclusion that it’s the manner of the protests , im seeing Palestine flags , free free Palestine chants , river to the sea chanted and I think that’s it for me , if I was seeing massive anti killing banners and chants for our gov to do everything in its power to bring pressure to bear on ALL parties to stop the killing , return hostages and perhaps even a United Nations force on the ground to police things until some workable peace can be found then that intimidates no one , taking to the streets waving flags of another country thousands of miles away doesn’t feel that comfortable to me , it feels more like side taking in a situation that is historically a mess and hugely sectarian based , im sure the vast majority are sickened by the deaths and misery going on but there is a vibe that is frankly quite scary 

If Britain was getting absolutely obliterated by another country's bombs, I'm sure the British flag would be used as a point of pride by those protesting.

[Archied]

1 hour ago, Highgate said:

The vibe that is really scary is that the governments of the world watch on (with the exception of South Africa) and simply let Netanyahu's government bomb civilians for as long as he pleases with absolutely impunity.  Barely a voice raised in opposition from the leaders of our countries. That's what really scary...not some people taking to the streets and waving Palestinian flags in solidarity with those who are suffering.

I agree that the loss of life on both sides is tragic, and that hostages should be returned as part of any peace settlement.  But this is not an equal or balanced conflict. It never has been. 

Well thanks for TELLING me that , along with not reading the actual post which in no way condones , supports or excuses governments standing by , sorry mate I’m on the side of the killing being stopped and waving a Palestine flag or an Israeli flag has no place in that 

[Archied]

1 hour ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

If Britain was getting absolutely obliterated by another country's bombs, I'm sure the British flag would be used as a point of pride by those protesting.

Really 🤷🏻‍♂️

[Highgate]

7 minutes ago, Archied said:

Well thanks for TELLING me that , along with not reading the actual post which in no way condones , supports or excuses governments standing by , sorry mate I’m on the side of the killing being stopped and waving a Palestine flag or an Israeli flag has no place in that 

I did read your post.  Everyone wishes that the killing would stop, by Hamas and IDF, that really goes without saying.

My point was that your worry about people becoming motivated enough, by the massacre of Palestinians over the last few months, to wave some Palestinian flags around is an insignificant worry compared to the actual ceaseless bombing of Gaza itself and the shameful silence of our governments. 

Also I get the impression that you are implying that in Palestine/Israel, and in war in general, the two sides are equally to blame.  This is not always the case, there is often a clear aggressor.  The situation in the Palestine/Israel is a complicated one, but it's clear enough to see who has been occupying whose land. 

 

[Comrade 86]

I think Galloway's by-election win should be viewed for what it is; a protest vote and a very clear hint to both Labour and Tory parties that people are furious over our dereliction of duty as a civilised nation in respect of the Gazan war and specifically, our continued veto of any attempt to call a lasting ceasefire. And that's before we even address the bombing runs undertaken against Yemeni targets in our name in response to Houthi attacks on our shipping lanes that we've brought upon ourselves with our open support of the Israeli war crimes.

There are over 30,000 dead Palestinians (the vast majority pf them women and children) with in excess of 10,000 lying dead and rotting, buried in the rubble that was once their homes. Add to that over 2 million injured and displaced Palestinians now slowly starving, or dying through disease in S. Gaza. 

Nobody wants to see reprisals against ordinary Israeli civilians, but I'm afraid that right now, the urgent humanitarian crisis lies further afield than good Old Blighty and in the grand scheme of clusterfucks, the appointment of Galloway to the commons is but a mosquito on an elephant's arse.

[Tamworthram]

31 minutes ago, Comrade 86 said:

I think Galloway's by-election win should be viewed for what it is; a protest vote and a very clear hint to both Labour and Tory parties that people are furious over our dereliction of duty as a civilised nation in respect of the Gazan war and specifically, our continued veto of any attempt to call a lasting ceasefire. And that's before we even address the bombing runs undertaken against Yemeni targets in our name in response to Houthi attacks on our shipping lanes that we've brought upon ourselves with our open support of the Israeli war crimes.

There are over 30,000 dead Palestinians (the vast majority pf them women and children) with in excess of 10,000 lying dead and rotting, buried in the rubble that was once their homes. Add to that over 2 million injured and displaced Palestinians now slowly starving, or dying through disease in S. Gaza. 

Nobody wants to see reprisals against ordinary Israeli civilians, but I'm afraid that right now, the urgent humanitarian crisis lies further afield than good Old Blighty and in the grand scheme of clusterfucks, the appointment of Galloway to the commons is but a mosquito on an elephant's arse.

I’d like to think so but I also somehow doubt he would have won if there had been a labour candidate standing in what was, at the last general election, a very safe labour seat.

[Archied]

43 minutes ago, Highgate said:

I did read your post.  Everyone wishes that the killing would stop, by Hamas and IDF, that really goes without saying.

My point was that your worry about people becoming motivated enough, by the massacre of Palestinians over the last few months, to wave some Palestinian flags around is an insignificant worry compared to the actual ceaseless bombing of Gaza itself and the shameful silence of our governments. 

Also I get the impression that you are implying that in Palestine/Israel, and in war in general, the two sides are equally to blame.  This is not always the case, there is often a clear aggressor.  The situation in the Palestine/Israel is a complicated one, but it's clear enough to see who has been occupying whose land. 

 

There is absolutely nothing in anything I’ve ever said on here that could even slightly give the impression that I see both sides equally to blame or which one if any I privately feel carries more of the blame and the reason for that is that now is not the time or the place  , in fact that says far more about you for forming and stating that impression of me

let me make it clear yet again and it’s my opinion , take it , leave it but do me a favour and don’t twist it,

if you are out on the streets of the U.K. waving Palestinian flags , chanting free free Palestine, singing from the river to the sea then you are part of the problem and a problem that will spread ,

if you are committed enough to be out on the streets with banners calling for our government to do everything in its power to stop ALL the killing and misery in the Middle East ( which includes release of ALL hostages of which many are women and children both sides holding some) , then you have my utmost respect ,

 

Edited March 4 by Archied

[Highgate]

16 minutes ago, Archied said:

There is absolutely nothing in anything I’ve ever said on here that could even slightly give the impression that I see both sides equally to blame or which one if any I privately feel carries more of the blame and the reason for that is that now is not the time or the place  , in fact that says far more about you for forming and stating that impression of me

let me make it clear yet again and it’s my opinion , take it , leave it but do me a favour and don’t twist it,

if you are out on the streets of the U.K. waving Palestinian flags , chanting free free Palestine, singing from the river to the sea then you are part of the problem and a problem that will spread ,

if you are committed enough to be out on the streets with banners calling for our government to do everything in its power to stop ALL the killing and misery in the Middle East ( which includes release of ALL hostages of which many are women and children both sides holding some) , then you have my utmost respect ,

I think it's pretty safe for either of us to voice our honest opinions on the whole issue here. Neither of us make the slightest bit of difference. I'd be lying by omission if I didn't say that I think Israel had been treating Palestinians unjustly for decades, systematically and deliberately and that this recent bombing campaign is nothing but industrial slaughter.  I also be lying if I didn't say that the actions of Hamas have been utterly deplorable and that the organization itself is exactly what the Palestinians don't need. But as usual in that part of the world the US underwritten Israeli government's violence dwarfs all the atrocities committed by Hamas.  

I don't see any reason to keep these views secret, that won't solve anything.

My point was just that your worry about Palestinian flag waving seems inconsequential compared to the bigger picture.  Incidentally I agree the phrase 'the river to the sea' is unhelpful as this might suggest that there would be no place for Jews in any peace settlement (which of course there must be, obviously). I don't really see how you can be surprised or have a problem with any of the rest of it, given what we have all been witnessing in Gaza for the past few months. 

[Alph]

4 hours ago, Archied said:

Whilst I agree and understand your post I do question whether it does anything other than perpetuate division and a partisan feel ( I’m sure you don’t do this purposely) , in reply the next poster can come on and give examples that can’t be denied from the other side and back and forth back and forth ,

the atmosphere on our streets has honestly really concerned me since the start of this latest conflict and yet I’ve not really been able to square that feeling with the fact that I’m very very anti what’s going on in the Middle East and trying to work it out I’ve kind of come to the conclusion that it’s the manner of the protests , im seeing Palestine flags , free free Palestine chants , river to the sea chanted and I think that’s it for me , if I was seeing massive anti killing banners and chants for our gov to do everything in its power to bring pressure to bear on ALL parties to stop the killing , return hostages and perhaps even a United Nations force on the ground to police things until some workable peace can be found then that intimidates no one , taking to the streets waving flags of another country thousands of miles away doesn’t feel that comfortable to me , it feels more like side taking in a situation that is historically a mess and hugely sectarian based , im sure the vast majority are sickened by the deaths and misery going on but there is a vibe that is frankly quite scary 

If I come across as creating division then I'd ask what it is that somebody disagrees with me on.

You're suggesting I could be in a tit for tat argument that sews division. I'd ask who would I be in that argument with? Because if you said to me that Israel has the right to exist, the right to self defence and national security then I'd agree. 

The problem comes when either I demand the same for Palestinians (which makes anybody who disagrees a Zionist POS)

or when we talk about how to achieve that. Because as soon as I point to settler violence, illegal occupation and Apartheid law then I become aggressive and confrontational. Yet if somebody points out that Hamas are a roadblock to peace you won't find any argument from me. I'd only ask how you think Hamas can be removed by force. 

I'm Pro Palestinian to the point of a secure state for Palestinians where they are not dictated to by their enemies. No further. I don't reject the existence of Israel and I recognise that this is the view of many Palestinians. But I'm not supporting that. That's just a position I understand (and disagree with) in the same way I understand Israelis that also fully support Netenyahu. But this is where the international community demands a standard from both (except it doesn't)

I'm not saying that the road to a Palestinian State isn't a long hard complex solution. But I would like to know how it's unreasonable, threatening, antisemtic etc. 

.......

As for the atmosphere on our streets. The protests are peaceful. There are more arrests at football. This doesn't mean that they don't have potential to become violent. 

However, the absolutely disgusting right wing government absolutely has encouraged division. They're a disgrace. 

And take a look at their position on Gaza. They send weapons to Israel, they acknowledge the war crimes (often by accident) and they cut aid for the Palestinians. While telling you that the protests (which to this day have been overwhelmingly peaceful where I can walk side by side with Jews on the issue) are the villains. 

No. They are the villains. The problem is that they ignore the will of the people and what happens when the will of the people is ignored? The people go to more extreme lengths. That's the danger here. 

If you or anyone else has a bigger problem with those who shout for justice and peace while waving the flags of another country on our streets (the streets of a country that actively supports the IDF) than with the government then that frightens me. 

The gaslighting of those who oppose war by those who support it is a masterstroke by scum like Suella Braverman, Truss, Sunak, Anderson etc

[Archied]

16 minutes ago, Highgate said:

I think it's pretty safe for either of us to voice our honest opinions on the whole issue here. Neither of us make the slightest bit of difference. I'd be lying by omission if I didn't say that I think Israel had been treating Palestinians unjustly for decades, systematically and deliberately and that this recent bombing campaign is nothing but industrial slaughter.  I also be lying if I didn't say that the actions of Hamas have been utterly deplorable and that the organization itself is exactly what the Palestinians don't need. But as usual in that part of the world the US underwritten Israeli government's violence dwarfs all the atrocities committed by Hamas.  

I don't see any reason to keep these views secret, that won't solve anything.

My point was just that your worry about Palestinian flag waving seems inconsequential compared to the bigger picture.  Incidentally I agree the phrase 'the river to the sea' is unhelpful as this might suggest that there would be no place for Jews in any peace settlement (which of course there must be, obviously). I don't really see how you can be surprised or have a problem with any of the rest of it, given what we have all been witnessing in Gaza for the past few months. 

My views on the historic mess that is Israel / Palestine are not secret I just feel that to unpack and debate them on here and at this particular time in light of EVERYTHING that has gone on and is going on in that region would very much take away from what I believe the current and urgent priority is now,

fair enough you think my feeling regards waving flags in the street is inconsequential, I don’t , I think it very much weakens and cheapens what should and could be a very strong message from people on the streets and it attracts the wrong kind of people , is too easy to cause fear and divide , I would no more take to the streets with an Israeli flag after the 7 th than I would carry a Palestine one now when I believe that Israel should cease fire NOW, let alone not believing the course of action they have embarked on from the start was the wrong one ,

you say everyone is against the killing and it goes without saying ,,, sadly I don’t believe that and I’m sure there plenty turning up waving flags with bad intent and the vibe is not good , 

[Ram-Alf]

How crazy is this

Nazis Vs Jews = Holocaust...the eradication of peoples 

Jews Vs Palestinians = Genocide...the eradication of peoples 

What a fcuked up World we live in 🙄 

 

 

[Tamworthram]

34 minutes ago, Ram-Alf said:

How crazy is this

Nazis Vs Jews = Holocaust...the eradication of peoples 

Jews Vs Palestinians = Genocide...the eradication of peoples 

What a fcuked up World we live in 🙄 

 

 

There are sadly plenty more examples than the two you have quoted. 😢

[Crewton]

4 hours ago, Highgate said:

The vibe that is really scary is that the governments of the world watch on (with the exception of South Africa) and simply let Netanyahu's government bomb civilians for as long as he pleases with absolutely impunity.  Barely a voice raised in opposition from the leaders of our countries. That's what really scary...not some people taking to the streets and waving Palestinian flags in solidarity with those who are suffering.

I agree that the loss of life on both sides is tragic, and that hostages should be returned as part of any peace settlement.  But this is not an equal or balanced conflict. It never has been. 

For the West and Gaza, read the non-West (including South Africa) and Ukraine. They're no more "moral" or "noble" than we are.

[Ram-Alf]

3 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

There are sadly plenty more examples than the two you have quoted. 😢

How far back would you like me to go...The Romans maybe, Vikings, Normans, British, America, France, Spain, China, Japan, North Korea, The Americas, The African continent, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Russia...are just some off the top of my head, An example of mans inhumanity to man since man discovered man. 

[Tamworthram]

Just now, Ram-Alf said:

How far back would you like me to go...The Romans maybe, Vikings, Normans, British, America, France, Spain, China, Japan, North Korea, The Americas, The African continent, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Russia...are just some off the top of my head, An example of mans inhumanity to man since man discovered man. 

I don’t want you to go back in history at all. I didn’t ask you to list all the examples you can think of. I don’t know why you have responded in the way you have especially as I was essentially agreeing with you - it is a f***ed up world and there are sadly plenty of examples. 

[ramit]

The main cause of war is leaders having issues with each other, they then stir up the population with some handy excuse or another, who after the bloody mess is over sit down shaking heads and are either left embittered for life or wondering what the hell caused all this madness.

Leaders are the problem, most humans cannot handle power.

Edited March 4 by ramit
typo

[Eddie]

I Niemöllered the thread a few days ago.

Perhaps it's time to Santayana it.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

 

[Alph]

1 hour ago, Archied said:

 

you say everyone is against the killing and it goes without saying ,,, sadly I don’t believe that and I’m sure there plenty turning up waving flags with bad intent and the vibe is not good , 

Not everyone that goes to football is there for the love of sport or to support their team. 

I'll tell you, the vast majority of people who have been on the protests have been about pressuring our country to pressure Israel into a ceasefire. 

There's many there that don't quite understand why. They just see peace as good cause. No problem with that, surely? 

There's many who go too far but are certainly not dangerous. They go too far in that they would have a Palestinian State with the jets and tanks that Israel have. They talk about the Nakba and are lean on the idea that Israel is illegitimate. But we are past that now. There is no realistic solution that returns lands to Palestinian people from the Nakba. They need to understand Israel has to have the strength to defend itself and Palestine can not just be given that military power over night 

Then there's a great many that understand the situation. And all they ask is for the things that are reasonable. A road to peace. International pressure and a fair solution. 

There are Jews (that are called Judenrat by Pro Israeli Jews). There's a huge mix of ordinary people. 

But the government would prefer you see them as you do. It's gaslighting. The real mob supports what you're seeing in Gaza. That's the mob that is violent and dangerous. They're the mob that would tell you that I'm on Pro Hamas marches and I'm antisemitic. That I oppose democracy. That I'm anti British? What? Because I want Britain to stop supporting Israel in plausible genocide and ethnic cleansing? 

Edited March 4 by Alph

[Comrade 86]

23 minutes ago, Eddie said:

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

Perhaps, but that seems scarcely relevant to this war. The issue in Gaza is not that either faction is unable to recollect the past, but rather that neither side is able to forget it.

[Eddie]

8 minutes ago, Comrade 86 said:

Perhaps, but that seems scarcely relevant to this war. The issue in Gaza is not that either faction is unable to recollect the past, but rather that neither side is able to forget it.

It's relevant to every war - there is always a precedent, and the irony of a people who historically suffered genocide now seemingly thinking that it's perhaps not such a bad idea is not lost on me.