Palestine

[Highgate]

16 minutes ago, Archied said:

Always makes me smile seeing people who ridicule people as conspiracy theorists happily promote conspiracy theories 😂
next you’ll be telling us the White House put terrorists on planes for 9/11 so they could ride the wave of fear and anger to achieve its aims , what’s the lives of a few thousand home grown plebs here and there

What's the alleged conspiracy that you are objecting to?  

Also who have I ridiculed as a conspiracy theorist? 

[Alph]

1 hour ago, Archied said:

Always makes me smile seeing people who ridicule people as conspiracy theorists happily promote conspiracy theories 😂
next you’ll be telling us the White House put terrorists on planes for 9/11 so they could ride the wave of fear and anger to achieve its aims , what’s the lives of a few thousand home grown plebs here and there

It's not a conspiracy theory. 

[Archied]

2 hours ago, Highgate said:

What's the alleged conspiracy that you are objecting to?  

Also who have I ridiculed as a conspiracy theorist? 

Your saying pretty much that Isreal engineered a regime into power in gazza that could kill Israeli people so they could have an excuse to take over gazza ,, purposely sacrificing the lives of its own citizens,,,is that not what you are saying ? Have I read that wrong ?

im pretty sure you are one who has given me stick as some tin foil hat wearer when I’m very cynical on subjects and done the same to others , if your honestly telling me I’m mistaken and you have never done that then you have my apologies 🤷🏻‍♂️

[Archied]

1 hour ago, Alph said:

It's not a conspiracy theory. 

So are you saying ( agreeing ) that the Israeli government have over a long term engineered hamas into power so they could/ would kill Israeli citizens therefore allowing them to carry out they’re foreign policy aims ?

[Highgate]

51 minutes ago, Archied said:

Your saying pretty much that Isreal engineered a regime into power in gazza that could kill Israeli people so they could have an excuse to take over gazza ,, purposely sacrificing the lives of its own citizens,,,is that not what you are saying ? Have I read that wrong ?

im pretty sure you are one who has given me stick as some tin foil hat wearer when I’m very cynical on subjects and done the same to others , if your honestly telling me I’m mistaken and you have never done that then you have my apologies 🤷🏻‍♂️

This really shouldn't be news to anyone....Netanyahu didn't want serious negotiations about a 2 state solution with the Palestinian Authority, much better to have Hamas in charge with whom he could refuse to negotiate with and therefore maintain the status quo.  

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

I'm sure the intent of the Israeli government was that there were never be an event like October 7th,  but to state that Hamas wouldn't be as strong without Netanyahu's policies over the years  doesn't seem to me to be controversial, and definitely not conspiratorial. 

I've disagreed with your views numerous times on Climate Change, more often than not really, but I don't ever recall calling you a conspiracy theorist. 

[Eddie]

1 hour ago, Archied said:

So are you saying ( agreeing ) that the Israeli government have over a long term engineered hamas into power so they could/ would kill Israeli citizens therefore allowing them to carry out they’re foreign policy aims ?

It's irrefutable that Israel went so far as actually helping to create Hamas.

Recently, articles in Washington Post, New York Times and even Israeli newspapers have suggested that funding and other aid to Hamas went on much longer than the set-up (the aims of which may or may not have been the overthrow and eventual replacement of Fatah and the PLO).

Perhaps it was a case of "Keep your friends close and your enemies closer still" - but the bottom line is such that the very existence of Hamas means that there can be no Palestine unless Israel wills it - and therein lies the rub. Very convenient for Netanyahu because the existence of Palestine is an "Over my dead body" issue for him.

[Alph]

1 hour ago, Archied said:

So are you saying ( agreeing ) that the Israeli government have over a long term engineered hamas into power so they could/ would kill Israeli citizens therefore allowing them to carry out they’re foreign policy aims ?

So they could kill Israeli citizens? Not exactly. But the rest? Yes, absolutely. 

I'm not saying Israel opened the gates on the 7th like some suggest. I don't know or care what role, if any, Israel had in that massacre. Hamas are responsible for what their people did to those civilians. 

But that Netenyahu propped up Hamas, that he's wanted to divide Palestinian power, that Israel have used Hamas, that money found it's way from Israel into Gaza... Yes, I'm saying that.

His history is so despicable that it's shocking his nice suit and American accent was enough to sell him as a respectable leader. Him, Ben Gvir, Herzog, Smotrich etc .... These are not people that share our supposed values. Terrorists with ties on

[Alph]

8 hours ago, 1of4 said:

I'm sure most of the world want to see a peaceful end to this conflict.

While I've seen Israelis in their own country protesting and demanding that their government negotiate a ceasefire, which could lead to the removal of Prime Minister Netanyahu.   I've not seen Palestinians protesting and demanding Hamas negotiate a ceasefire.

Many of the Palestinian marches and flag waving that have taken place in the UK not only seem to be protesting against the actions of Israel, but due to the chanting of "from the river to the sea", the total destruction of Israel.

Apparently Hamas have refused to take part in any ceasefire negotiations until all their demands are met. Aren't these meeting supposedly for the two side to come to a compromise, not to rubber stamp the demands of one of the antagonists?

Are the  leaders of Hamas more concerned about the survival of their own organisation and their call for the total destruction of Israel than the safety and well-being of the Palestinian people?

There are claims that what Israel are doing in Gaza is genocide, but isn't what Hamas and their supporters are advocating for is, the total destruction of the state of Israel and it's people, an actual act of genocide?

 

Palestinians are not in the same position as Israelis. It's not a fair comparison.

"From the River to the Sea". Firstly it has two meanings. The one that means the end of Israel. One that means Palestinians will have the same rights and freedoms of the Israeli Jews. There's a Zionist version too which doesn't seem to concern people as much. 

Hamas spoke last week of the way they see this war going. In short they see it's going quite well. This is all necessary for the fight to free Palestine. Early in the year they were speaking with Fatah about mapping out a future for a state. They're not a partner for peace though and I'm not trying to paint them as noble freedom fighters. But I'm just trying to explain that they are fighting for a greater cause and the human cost will be whatever it takes to isolate and weaken Israel while legitimising themselves as leader of Palestinians. If it takes 30,000 or 300,000... it will be worth it (to them)

Yes, Hamas are dedicated to the destruction of Israel. Somewhere in their charter it says something about Jews of the land can live with Arabs in peace again. But all immigrant Jews (Israeli Jews) must go (be killed?) There's nobody who should be defending/supporting Hamas.

But what's important is that Hamas represent something to the Palestinians who face an Apartheid Colonial aggressor. 

Was the 7th an act of genocide? Yes. But what are we going to do with this group? Well, Netenyahu is on a recruitment drive for them. 

You can't really ask Palestinians to oppose Hamas when the alternative is what? "Greater Israel"? 

I hate it when people say it's complex but then paint the picture of liberal democratic state Vs evil terrorist organisation. Which is the most common narrative. If it's complex it's because you have extremists on both sides. 

[Archied]

6 hours ago, Alph said:

Palestinians are not in the same position as Israelis. It's not a fair comparison.

"From the River to the Sea". Firstly it has two meanings. The one that means the end of Israel. One that means Palestinians will have the same rights and freedoms of the Israeli Jews. There's a Zionist version too which doesn't seem to concern people as much. 

Hamas spoke last week of the way they see this war going. In short they see it's going quite well. This is all necessary for the fight to free Palestine. Early in the year they were speaking with Fatah about mapping out a future for a state. They're not a partner for peace though and I'm not trying to paint them as noble freedom fighters. But I'm just trying to explain that they are fighting for a greater cause and the human cost will be whatever it takes to isolate and weaken Israel while legitimising themselves as leader of Palestinians. If it takes 30,000 or 300,000... it will be worth it (to them)

Yes, Hamas are dedicated to the destruction of Israel. Somewhere in their charter it says something about Jews of the land can live with Arabs in peace again. But all immigrant Jews (Israeli Jews) must go (be killed?) There's nobody who should be defending/supporting Hamas.

But what's important is that Hamas represent something to the Palestinians who face an Apartheid Colonial aggressor. 

Was the 7th an act of genocide? Yes. But what are we going to do with this group? Well, Netenyahu is on a recruitment drive for them. 

You can't really ask Palestinians to oppose Hamas when the alternative is what? "Greater Israel"? 

I hate it when people say it's complex but then paint the picture of liberal democratic state Vs evil terrorist organisation. Which is the most common narrative. If it's complex it's because you have extremists on both sides. 

Yep there’s plenty there I agree with , when you boil it down you have few people at the top on both sides comfortable for they’re own people to die and suffer for they’re own aims whilst the ordinary folk on both sides just want an end to killing and be able to live lives in peace 🤷🏻‍♂️, every Jew killed can be a recruiting tool for extremist and every Palestinian killed the same 🤷🏻‍♂️,

been going on for a very long time in that region, rinse and repeat , in my view us and the Americans have been pulling the same poo for decades in many regions over many issues but when you raise this stuff you get accused of being a conspiracy theorist ,

same with covid , so much that was done stinks to high heaven , point it out and your a tin foil hat wearer ,

same with net zero , so much stinks to high heaven , only scratch the surface and and so much makes no sense , point it out , tin foil hat wearer 

that old saying follow the money actually works in most cases but I’ve personally been ripped into for saying that on here over stuff ,

is the stuff being said on here regards the Israeli government s long term actions leading to the most recent crisis true ( stuff that falls into conspiracy theory territory) ,,,? I don’t know as I must admit I’ve not followed it closely for years , could it be true ? In my mind as a cynical observer of what gov , established money and big business get up to , hell yes it very much could be but as I say I get called a tin foil hat wearer very often for being that way and stating my concerns 

[Comrade 86]

I'll just say it then; Netanyahu and anyone, Jews or otherwise, who supports him and his gang of IDF murderers are flat out scum. Enough is enough. Haul the f***** to The Hague and bang him up for life. Won't happen of course, because being pissed at him and his ilk is mandatorily antisemitic. 

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has described the attack by the Israeli military on the World Central Kitchen team, which killed seven aid workers, as tragic but unintentional.

“It happens in war,” he said.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-68710949

[Comrade 86]

11 hours ago, Archied said:

been going on for a very long time in that region, rinse and repeat , in my view us and the Americans have been pulling the same poo for decades in many regions over many issues but when you raise this stuff you get accused of being a conspiracy theorist

By whom? Never seen anyone anyone adopt that line on here. Who is it that has mocked you for calling out US foreign policy?

[Archied]

11 minutes ago, Comrade 86 said:

By whom? Never seen anyone anyone adopt that line on here. Who is it that has mocked you for calling out US foreign policy?

😂, you know I don’t mean that , I’ve been called out loads on covid and net zero , ulez, big pharma ect thing is I’m very cynical and question everything with the same critical eye , personally I believe too many in positions of power have been let off easily under the claim they are just bungling idiots when useful idiots on the make/ take is far more fitting , that said though ; away from this forum over the years I have been seen as a bit of a loon when I very much question ours and the Americans foreign policy 

[sage]

22 minutes ago, Archied said:

😂 ; away from this forum over the years I have been seen as a bit of a loon when I very much question ours and the Americans foreign policy 

You aren't seen as a bit of a loon on here, quite the opposite.

 

[Archied]

3 minutes ago, sage said:

You aren't seen as a bit of a loon on here, quite the opposite.

 

Depends what subject we are on sage but to be honest I just bumble on and say what I see , could be right , could be wrong or a bit of both🤷🏻‍♂️

[Comrade 86]

2 hours ago, Archied said:

😂, you know I don’t mean that , I’ve been called out loads on covid and net zero , ulez, big pharma ect thing is I’m very cynical and question everything with the same critical eye , personally I believe too many in positions of power have been let off easily under the claim they are just bungling idiots when useful idiots on the make/ take is far more fitting , that said though ; away from this forum over the years I have been seen as a bit of a loon when I very much question ours and the Americans foreign policy 

All well and good mate, but I think given the topic, there's probably more pressing stuff to discuss than how you feel you are dealt with on and off this forum. If it's really as big a problem as you make out, you could quite easily avoid the contentious threads, but you choose not to and let's have it right here, you've given as good as you get with your labelling of anyone you see as left wing anyway. Everyone else has moved on, but seemingly you can't. Odd that.

[ariotofmyown]

If you are a reasonable and moderate Israeli, you must be worried about the future.

Most support and goodwill will be ebbing away across the world. Worrying too that the government are democratically elected. What does it say about the state of the electorate?

If Israel do become properly isolated, they are facing a very dangerous future. How many Palestinians will they continue to slaughter before this happens though?

The military were against the government before it all kicked off. Perhaps there needs to be a milatry coup in Israel asap to save Israel.

Offer peace, a proper 2 state solution, no more settlements, and economic aid in return for the hostages. Plus the people who organised the initial attacks, alongside Netenyaru and friends, to The Hague.

[Archied]

9 hours ago, Comrade 86 said:

All well and good mate, but I think given the topic, there's probably more pressing stuff to discuss than how you feel you are dealt with on and off this forum. If it's really as big a problem as you make out, you could quite easily avoid the contentious threads, but you choose not to and let's have it right here, you've given as good as you get with your labelling of anyone you see as left wing anyway. Everyone else has moved on, but seemingly you can't. Odd that.

You’ve read it wrong , im not complaining and as you say , if it was a problem I wouldn’t post , the point was that some of the recent posts could very easily be put in the conspiracy theory bracket , I’ve stated that I would not label them as such given I havnt really been following Middle East politics/ problems for some time until the latest horrors, simply stating there seems a quickness to dismiss stuff as conspiracy theory and then a rush to accept stuff at other times with some not demanding the same level of proof for different situations,

that said I’m not really up for an argument as I’ve made it clear my feelings on the treatment of Palestine by the west for decades and let’s be clear I blame the west far more than Israel for the long term mess that’s played out 

[Archied]

9 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

If you are a reasonable and moderate Israeli, you must be worried about the future.

Most support and goodwill will be ebbing away across the world. Worrying too that the government are democratically elected. What does it say about the state of the electorate?

If Israel do become properly isolated, they are facing a very dangerous future. How many Palestinians will they continue to slaughter before this happens though?

The military were against the government before it all kicked off. Perhaps there needs to be a milatry coup in Israel asap to save Israel.

Offer peace, a proper 2 state solution, no more settlements, and economic aid in return for the hostages. Plus the people who organised the initial attacks, alongside Netenyaru and friends, to The Hague.

As I have stated in another post , I blame the west for where we are far more than Israel , they are a small nation that is surrounded by enemies that want to destroy them ( slightly less so now ?) it’s a recipe for fear based expansion of they’re territory, power and economic wealth , a breeding ground for more extreme politics, the west whilst arming them to defend themselves have abdicated the responsibility they should have carried to stop them expanding, grabbing land and treating the Palestinian people in the way they have , why they have allowed this is very much up for debate in the area some would call conspiracy theory

Edited April 3 by Archied

[Leeds Ram]

13 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

If you are a reasonable and moderate Israeli, you must be worried about the future.

Most support and goodwill will be ebbing away across the world. Worrying too that the government are democratically elected. What does it say about the state of the electorate?

If Israel do become properly isolated, they are facing a very dangerous future. How many Palestinians will they continue to slaughter before this happens though?

The military were against the government before it all kicked off. Perhaps there needs to be a milatry coup in Israel asap to save Israel.

Offer peace, a proper 2 state solution, no more settlements, and economic aid in return for the hostages. Plus the people who organised the initial attacks, alongside Netenyaru and friends, to The Hague.

Most Israeli's support the war on Gaza and the big problem is constructing a Palestinian state. There's nothing really to work with. Obviously Hamas can't be leaders of the new state, the Palestinian Authority lack all legitimacy and there is the territorial nightmare of what Palestine would be constructed of... That's not even thinking about the 'right of return' which has traditionally been a stumbling block. When people talk of ceasefire I get that and it's the right thing to do on a humanitarian level. However, that merely stops the clock. It doesn't change the structural barriers to a long term solution. 

[Alph]

Hamas can't lead a Palestinian State. But Likud can lead Israel. 

Territory is a stumbling block to those in Efrat, Ma'ale Adumim and the escalated settler plan Israel has come up with. 

The right of return is something Israeli Jews have a right to. It's for "Greater Israel". 

As Sunak and Co say. They want to see a permanent ceasefire and not a temporary pause. So continuing arms sales to Israel while cutting funding to UNWRA is unfortunately a necessary step to peace. You have to think of the bigger picture.