Palestine

[Crewton]

11 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

Maybe Labour should have as well but sadly, that’s not quite how the opposition parties seem to work. 
 

I’m no particular fan of the SNP but if their only breach of parliamentary convention is to refuse to clap then I’m not sure anyone should be losing too much sleep over the matter. Maybe the relative scale of the breaches aren’t relevant but perhaps the suspected motivation behind them is. 

It's their insistence on clapping, not their refusal to clap, which breaches convention, but I understand your POV.

It wasn't Labour's Opposition Day, it was the SNP's, but they chose the wording of their motion unilaterally to expose the division in the Labour Party, rather than using it to attack the Government's position on the conflict - they're the ones determining British policy on the ME after all, not the Labour Party. That's 'playing politics' rather than seeking a solution. None if it looked great from the outside, but most of the rage inside the chamber was from SNP & Conservatives who were denied the opportunity to make life difficult for Starmer. Their words on the plight of the Palestinians were no doubt sincere, but was getting a motion passed REALLY their main objective?

[Ram-Alf]

8 minutes ago, Gaspode said:

This is descending into politics, but the suggestion was that the SNP were far more interested in causing issues for Labour than getting their motion through - ask yourself which party is the greatest threat to SNP seats at the next election? - and then ask yourself why Starmer was so set on obstructiong their plan (whether that involved applying pressure to the Speaker or not)? The slaughter in Palestine was very much secondary to the domestic politics of the opposition parties on the day.....

Westminster is a talking shop, What would have happened if all the shenanigans hadn't happened over the Gaza vote?...nothing...nothing at all, Only to serve who voted where/how, Israel would have stuck their middle finger up and said...fcuk you...so what we'll carry on regardless. 

[Archied]

On 27/02/2024 at 11:29, Alph said:

The only thing the SNP did/said that was wrong was that they stormed off in a tantrum. More offended by not being able to vote on their own motion on their own day. It's understandable. But the issue was bigger and more desperate than procedure. They should have at least supported the labour amendment for the sake of Gazans. 

Hoyle apologised. Said what he did was wrong. Then pooped on them again. The SNP concluded that Israel is guilty of war crimes. Which they are. But then you've got people who are more angry at the SNP for being angry than they are about ethnic cleansing, war crimes and potentially genocide. They'll complain about the brightness of the sun if it avoids talking about the slaughter. 

It's something we see a lot of. Hypocrisy with the stance on Ukraine/Russia. The hunt for Antisemitism where it doesn't exist (there's plenty out there without using it as a shield to defend an abhorrent position) while blatant Islamophobia in the House (that's the second time this year) is given the airbrush treatment. 

Hoyle, of course, did it for the safety of MPs. Given all the ducking and weaving these lot have done. Given the position that the rest of the world is taking. Given the outrageous comments by MPs. I call a steaming pile of bs. Because I think it's more likely that he's falling in line with the eagerness from our politicians to offer political and military support for Israel. Which continues by the way. So let's skip the part where we pretend to be shocked at any such accusation. 

God forbid the UK officially call out Israel on war crimes. They're clearly not guilty....

We will go round in circles until we all accept the war is a crime and those at the top who wage it are criminals,,, never mind war crimes

[Eddie]

22 minutes ago, Archied said:

We will go round in circles until we all accept the war is a crime and those at the top who wage it are criminals,,, never mind war crimes

Totally agree.

There is never a justification for war.

[Alph]

2 hours ago, Archied said:

We will go round in circles until we all accept the war is a crime and those at the top who wage it are criminals,,, never mind war crimes

I want to agree. 

But we have to accept self defence (Ukraine) is justified

Problem is that when anybody declares war it's always for self defence, national security, regional interests etc. 

And even when it's opposed there's often enough support in the echo chambers to support preemptive strikes and "military operations". 

Look at the gaslighting on the protesters against the Iraq war. 

The other weekend approx 250,000 people marched in London. There were 12 arrests. Look how they're spoken about. Look how warmongers talk about these demonstrations being disruptive to peace and democracy 

When a tyrant convinces enough people that Kurds/Jews need to be eradicated then what do you do? Spectate? 

I do think wars can be justified. But it's too easy to blur the lines. Skirt around international laws. With a touch of provocation you can self defence yourself to having military bases across the globe. 

Edited February 29 by Alph

[Archied]

56 minutes ago, Alph said:

I want to agree. 

But we have to accept self defence (Ukraine) is justified

Problem is that when anybody declares war it's always for self defence, national security, regional interests etc. 

And even when it's opposed there's often enough support in the echo chambers to support preemptive strikes and "military operations". 

Look at the gaslighting on the protesters against the Iraq war. 

The other weekend approx 250,000 people marched in London. There were 12 arrests. Look how they're spoken about. Look how warmongers talk about these demonstrations being disruptive to peace and democracy 

When a tyrant convinces enough people that Kurds/Jews need to be eradicated then what do you do? Spectate? 

I do think wars can be justified. But it's too easy to blur the lines. Skirt around international laws. With a touch of provocation you can self defence yourself to having military bases across the globe. 

Hence the word all and Russia first invaded though I’m sure if you go back through recent history it’s all pretty murky re other countries foreign policy and meddling to suit money and power interests in regions, yes a bit utopian but the truth is until the world comes together and stays together on the concept that war is a crime nothing changes , any leader waging war on another state is a criminal, not the ordinary people of that country ,

as for what’s going on in the streets of this country now regards the mess in the Middle East , it’s extremely worrying, sides are being picked and strong stances taken by people who often do not have the first clue of what a mess it is or the slightest inclination to try to look at anything other than they’re own stance , we have now reached a generational point where we are so far removed from the two world wars that people have forgotten/ never experienced what the end result of intransigent aggressive side taking leads to ,it’s pretty intimidating and scary times 

Edited February 29 by Archied

[RoyMac5]

 

[Alph]

Israel expressing it's right to self defence against starving Palestinians. Opening fire on crowds.

Classic IDF banter.

[Eddie]

7 minutes ago, Alph said:

Israel expressing it's right to self defence against starving Palestinians. Opening fire on crowds.

Classic IDF banter.

Reports suggest that dozens were crushed to death by said 'Aid Convoy'. It seems that the only 'saving' going on were the dozens of shekels being saved on the cost of bullets.

[Comrade 86]

One of the most shameful incidents I've seen in my entire life. I'm at a loss for words.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68445973

[Stive Pesley]

56 minutes ago, Comrade 86 said:

One of the most shameful incidents I've seen in my entire life. I'm at a loss for words.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68445973

Quote

At 13:06 local time on Thursday, an IDF statement posted on Telegram stated: "Early this morning, during the entry of humanitarian aid trucks into the northern Gaza Strip, Gazan residents surrounded the trucks, and looted the supplies being delivered.

How the **** can you "loot" aid trucks that are bringing you aid? 

[Alph]

Next week Israel will claim something else that we (governments, mainstream media) will take as the truth until proven a lie. 

Meanwhile we'll cast doubt on all Palestinian claims and gaslight anyone who dares flip it the other way. 

[Comrade 86]

Over 30,000 Palestinians now murdered, over 80,000 injured, over 10,000 still buried under the ruins that were their homes and in excess of 2 million displaced without access to food, water and medicines.

When is enough, enough? 

[bcnram]

3 hours ago, Comrade 86 said:

Over 30,000 Palestinians now murdered, over 80,000 injured, over 10,000 still buried under the ruins that were their homes and in excess of 2 million displaced without access to food, water and medicines.

When is enough, enough? 

Probably when they return the hostages and stop voting a terrorist organisation to run their country. Not saying it is right, but they couldn’t have hoped that their actions would not lead to the Israeli reaction. Hamas and those who support them in Palestine also have blood on their hands. 

[Alph]

3 hours ago, bcnram said:

Probably when they return the hostages and stop voting a terrorist organisation to run their country. Not saying it is right, but they couldn’t have hoped that their actions would not lead to the Israeli reaction. Hamas and those who support them in Palestine also have blood on their hands. 

Your first sentence fits Israel pretty good. The hostages would be those they have imprisoned without charge or charged with protesting the illegal occupation of their land of an Apartheid State. The Likud party and Netenyahu fit the terrorist description pretty well. They were elected in this "democracy". 

You know what happens without Hamas? Israeli occupation. 

What is Hamas? Well, tomorrow they're Palestinians who are digging their families out of rubble today. The Palestinians who have family members imprisoned for throwing stones as their homes are bulldozed. The Palestinians who were born into Hamas ran Gaza and have known only oppression by Israel. 

Hamas have blood on their hands. I've said throughout the thread that they need to be removed (or reformed maybe) into something Israel can make peace with. But they can not be destroyed because they're an ideology. A resistance to the Zionists who refer to lands by ancient name and encourage violence and intimidation to claim that land. You must destroy the Palestinians entirely. Or they must be given a reason to reject Hamas. 

In the last few months everybody has seen what it is that the Zionists are about. Sure, the scale of attacks on Palestinians has increased. But nothing new has happened. How many Palestinians died before October 7th in 2023? Nobody knows without googling it. This is not about hostages for Netenyahu. It's not about October 7th. And if he wanted to destroy Hamas then he wouldn't have propped them up. Why did he prop them up? Because he wanted to split Palestinian power. Create division. Why? Because he, like those in his party, want a "Greater Israel". 

[Comrade 86]

13 hours ago, bcnram said:

Probably when they return the hostages and stop voting a terrorist organisation to run their country. Not saying it is right, but they couldn’t have hoped that their actions would not lead to the Israeli reaction. Hamas and those who support them in Palestine also have blood on their hands. 

Thank you for pointing out that Hamas also kill people and that killing people is bad. May I respond by saying that I agree entirely and that the IDF should therefore desist immediately, or be hauled to the Hague to answer for their war crimes? I'm more than happy to see the Hamas commanders suffer the same fate if my solution seems inequitable.

[Archied]

16 hours ago, Alph said:

Your first sentence fits Israel pretty good. The hostages would be those they have imprisoned without charge or charged with protesting the illegal occupation of their land of an Apartheid State. The Likud party and Netenyahu fit the terrorist description pretty well. They were elected in this "democracy". 

You know what happens without Hamas? Israeli occupation. 

What is Hamas? Well, tomorrow they're Palestinians who are digging their families out of rubble today. The Palestinians who have family members imprisoned for throwing stones as their homes are bulldozed. The Palestinians who were born into Hamas ran Gaza and have known only oppression by Israel. 

Hamas have blood on their hands. I've said throughout the thread that they need to be removed (or reformed maybe) into something Israel can make peace with. But they can not be destroyed because they're an ideology. A resistance to the Zionists who refer to lands by ancient name and encourage violence and intimidation to claim that land. You must destroy the Palestinians entirely. Or they must be given a reason to reject Hamas. 

In the last few months everybody has seen what it is that the Zionists are about. Sure, the scale of attacks on Palestinians has increased. But nothing new has happened. How many Palestinians died before October 7th in 2023? Nobody knows without googling it. This is not about hostages for Netenyahu. It's not about October 7th. And if he wanted to destroy Hamas then he wouldn't have propped them up. Why did he prop them up? Because he wanted to split Palestinian power. Create division. Why? Because he, like those in his party, want a "Greater Israel". 

Whilst I agree and understand your post I do question whether it does anything other than perpetuate division and a partisan feel ( I’m sure you don’t do this purposely) , in reply the next poster can come on and give examples that can’t be denied from the other side and back and forth back and forth ,

the atmosphere on our streets has honestly really concerned me since the start of this latest conflict and yet I’ve not really been able to square that feeling with the fact that I’m very very anti what’s going on in the Middle East and trying to work it out I’ve kind of come to the conclusion that it’s the manner of the protests , im seeing Palestine flags , free free Palestine chants , river to the sea chanted and I think that’s it for me , if I was seeing massive anti killing banners and chants for our gov to do everything in its power to bring pressure to bear on ALL parties to stop the killing , return hostages and perhaps even a United Nations force on the ground to police things until some workable peace can be found then that intimidates no one , taking to the streets waving flags of another country thousands of miles away doesn’t feel that comfortable to me , it feels more like side taking in a situation that is historically a mess and hugely sectarian based , im sure the vast majority are sickened by the deaths and misery going on but there is a vibe that is frankly quite scary 

[Ram-Alf]

28 minutes ago, Archied said:

The atmosphere on our streets has honestly really concerned me since the start of this latest conflict and yet I’ve not really been able to square that feeling with the fact that I’m very very anti what’s going on in the Middle East and trying to work it out I’ve kind of come to the conclusion that it’s the manner of the protests , im seeing Palestine flags , free free Palestine chants , river to the sea chanted and I think that’s it for me ,

And this is how George Galloway got the vote...excluding Labours fcuk up, This is the Galloway who sucked the c**k of one Saddam Hussain who murdered and tortured his people, His deputy is Chris Williamson of the Workers Party of Britain.

There's one thing of being able to have the freedom of speech but another if all Jews are a target for hate in the UK,   Galloway/Williamson will stoke the fires of hate for their own benefit.

We're a very short step from killings on our streets 

Edited March 4 by Ram-Alf

[Archied]

24 minutes ago, Ram-Alf said:

And this is how George Galloway got the vote...excluding Labours fcuk up, This is the Galloway who sucked the c**k of one Saddam Hussain who murdered and tortured his people, His deputy is Chris Williamson of the Workers Party of Britain.

There's one thing of being able to have the freedom of speech but another if all Jews are a target for hate in the UK,   Galloway/Williamson will stoke the fires of hate for their own benefit.

We're a very short step from killings on our streets 

Glad it’s not just me Alf , bloody scary the road we are heading down, as for Galloway, his words on being elected ,, wow

Edited March 4 by Archied

[Highgate]

55 minutes ago, Archied said:

Whilst I agree and understand your post I do question whether it does anything other than perpetuate division and a partisan feel ( I’m sure you don’t do this purposely) , in reply the next poster can come on and give examples that can’t be denied from the other side and back and forth back and forth ,

the atmosphere on our streets has honestly really concerned me since the start of this latest conflict and yet I’ve not really been able to square that feeling with the fact that I’m very very anti what’s going on in the Middle East and trying to work it out I’ve kind of come to the conclusion that it’s the manner of the protests , im seeing Palestine flags , free free Palestine chants , river to the sea chanted and I think that’s it for me , if I was seeing massive anti killing banners and chants for our gov to do everything in its power to bring pressure to bear on ALL parties to stop the killing , return hostages and perhaps even a United Nations force on the ground to police things until some workable peace can be found then that intimidates no one , taking to the streets waving flags of another country thousands of miles away doesn’t feel that comfortable to me , it feels more like side taking in a situation that is historically a mess and hugely sectarian based , im sure the vast majority are sickened by the deaths and misery going on but there is a vibe that is frankly quite scary. 

The vibe that is really scary is that the governments of the world watch on (with the exception of South Africa) and simply let Netanyahu's government bomb civilians for as long as he pleases with absolutely impunity.  Barely a voice raised in opposition from the leaders of our countries. That's what really scary...not some people taking to the streets and waving Palestinian flags in solidarity with those who are suffering.

I agree that the loss of life on both sides is tragic, and that hostages should be returned as part of any peace settlement.  But this is not an equal or balanced conflict. It never has been.