Palestine

[Alph]

Ah! Sderot! 

I hear they have an excellent cinema. 

[ramit]

"A ceasefire now will simply leave Hamas in place. They will regroup and repeat what it did on October 7."  Antony Blinken.

How exactly would Hamas repeat that attack, asked no one in the room. 

Would the IDF oblige by standing down again for 7 hours?

[Bob The Badger]

I'm coming into this conversation late without reading the thread because I just want to vent.

But what makes the Jewish response any different than if we'd rolled into Ireland after the IRA committed any of their atrocities?

A lot of Irish people supported the IRA in the same way as a lot of Palestinians support Hamas or even Hezbollah. But, even if some hardliners on the right would have loved that, it was never ever going to happen. 

Thousands of totally innocent civilians are dying in response to hundreds of innocent civilians dying. As an independent observer, I struggle to think of any way to justify the actions of either side. 

I suspect ina dacde Hamas will be even more powerful after a flood of new converts driven to them by the power trying to wipe them out.

Maybe I'm naive.

[Alph]

45 minutes ago, Bob The Badger said:

 

I suspect ina dacde Hamas will be even more powerful after a flood of new converts driven to them by the power trying to wipe them out.

Maybe I'm naive.

But this is not a problem. Israel will push the population of Gaza into Sinai. Israel will then be free to continue to drive the Palestinians back in West Bank. Hopefully a militant resistance forms there (Israel might have to help create one again) and that will accelerate that process by justifying excessive force by Israeli military on that front. 

So these resistance groups are good. They help Israel with an excuse to achieve their ultimate goal and that's to create a "peace corridor" ($$$) from Asia, UAE up through Israel into Europe. And serves the American interest in the Middle East while posing a direct threat to Iran. Biden was clear in 1986. Netenyahu has been a good boy!! 

Palestinians are free to join Hamas, move to Egypt or be pushed into the Jordan River. Who cares? They're in the way. 

[Comrade 86]

Meanwhile, back in the real world, where no political agenda is necessary to be appalled by events in Gaza, Arab states are demanding a ceasefire to allow aid to be provisioned and civilians to be evacuated without being carpet bombed. Sadly, the grand old US of A has again voiced the opinion that this would be a bad thing as it 'would benefit Hamas'. An easy stance to adopt, you might think, when it's not their kids being scraped off walls.

Still, no doubt they'll do a wonderful job of protecting civilians in their own countries when the resulting tsunami of terrorist atrocities reach our shores, unless of course said countries already have a Muslim population, like good old Blighty, where it'll be natives who are blowing s*** up. How, I wonder, will some evaluate 500 deaths on Western soil versus 9,400 and counting in Palestine? Ah well, doubtless any response will be 'proportionate' and that's all that matters.

Anyway, here's a pic of the latest 'targeted Israeli bombing attack' which doubtless enabled the IDF to kill yet another 'top Hamas commander'. This commander doesn't have a name, but the Israelis are adamant he was there and also that he's now dead, presumably because they flattened an entire neighbourhood. I don't doubt that Hamas are hiding in among ordinary civilians, so I expect the only viable solution is to kill everyone, which is clearly what the Israelis are trying to do.

Talking of a lack of evidence, @Alpha has the clown who keeps referencing 'beheaded babies' provided any shred of proof as yet? Seems even that old fool Biden has now retracted and the Israeli government itself has declared it 'cannot confirm' the stories, which is an interesting choice of words in itself. 

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/12/white-house-walks-back-bidens-claim-he-saw-children-beheaded-by-hamas

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/12/middleeast/israel-hamas-beheading-claims-intl/index.html

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2023/10/31/post-falsely-claims-newspaper-reported-no-babies-beheaded-hamas-israel-fact-check/71394076007/

Plus ça change...🤷‍♀️

[ramit]

This slaughter is straining long standing relations, Jordan is an ally of USA.

 

[Tamworthram]

16 hours ago, Bob The Badger said:

I'm coming into this conversation late without reading the thread because I just want to vent.

But what makes the Jewish response any different than if we'd rolled into Ireland after the IRA committed any of their atrocities?

A lot of Irish people supported the IRA in the same way as a lot of Palestinians support Hamas or even Hezbollah. But, even if some hardliners on the right would have loved that, it was never ever going to happen. 

Thousands of totally innocent civilians are dying in response to hundreds of innocent civilians dying. As an independent observer, I struggle to think of any way to justify the actions of either side. 

I suspect ina dacde Hamas will be even more powerful after a flood of new converts driven to them by the power trying to wipe them out.

Maybe I'm naive.

One small, but important (IMO) point of order. Shouldn’t you have said Israeli response rather than Jewish response?
 

Apart from that, I agree.

[Alph]

44 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

One small, but important (IMO) point of order. Shouldn’t you have said Israeli response rather than Jewish response?
 

Apart from that, I agree.

I did think that too. I knew what he meant but it's important to distinguish. Many Jews are horrified because they're human and too familiar ethnic cleansing. 

I think a genuine mistake from Bob. Suella Braverman however makes no such distinction between Palestinians/pro-Palestinians and terrorists. She's vile and starting to make Liz Truss comments in the Ukraine conflict seem quite calm and reasonable. 

[Grumpy Git]

38 minutes ago, Alpha said:

I think a genuine mistake from Bob. Suella Braverman however makes no such distinction between Palestinians/pro-Palestinians and terrorists. She's vile and starting to make Liz Truss comments in the Ukraine conflict seem quite calm and reasonable. 

Braverman is a horrible person and a very dangerous politician. She's completely shameless and knows exactly what she's doing. Unfortunately a lot fall for it.

[Ram-Alf]

22 minutes ago, Grumpy Git said:

Braverman is a horrible person and a very dangerous politician. She's completely shameless and knows exactly what she's doing. Unfortunately a lot fall for it.

It's called subterfuge...talk Bo***x about another subject to keep the press away from the real story, A party that has shown this last few years that a staring role in Fred Carnos Circus would be apt...no wonder 100s of 1000s are marching through London in support of Palestine.

[Alph]

16 hours ago, Comrade 86 said:

Talking of a lack of evidence, @Alpha has the clown who keeps referencing 'beheaded babies' provided any shred of proof as yet? Seems even that old fool Biden has now retracted and the Israeli government itself has declared it 'cannot confirm' the stories, which is an interesting choice of words in itself. 

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/12/white-house-walks-back-bidens-claim-he-saw-children-beheaded-by-hamas

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/12/middleeast/israel-hamas-beheading-claims-intl/index.html

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2023/10/31/post-falsely-claims-newspaper-reported-no-babies-beheaded-hamas-israel-fact-check/71394076007/

Plus ça change...🤷‍♀️

The beheaded babies/rape seems more and more like the propaganda to paint Hamas as monsters so that Israel can do their horrific work and it looks civil by comparison. 

What Hamas did do though seems bad enough from independent evidence. They were trying to kidnap women and children but were shooting men at point blank range. They were gathering them in shelters or houses and throwing grenades in. That accounts for the images of charred bodies. 

Most of the evidence of mass rape, beheadings etc seems to only come from Israel forensic teams and it's not been independently verified. Israel have a history of  "evidence"

What Israel also don't mention is their Hannibal Directive. To open fire without restraint even if that means killing hostages. I mean, we know this anyway because they're bombing Gaza and if the hostages are still alive it's because Hamas are keeping them safe. Some of the damage from October 7th isn't consistent with Hamas weaponry but at the end of the day Hamas were the ones that caused 1,400 deaths so the fact that IDF don't hold fire in hostage situations is probably not something to give too much significance? 

Another one is the hospital strikes. We saw "proof" that the rocket was from Hamas. But that proof is not conclusive after all. 

And then there was the journalists private screening they were invited to. A "horrifying compilation".... Oh I bet it was. Did it include the Duma attack? Nah. Did it mention Huwara? I doubt it. 

Israel lies. Yet we still buy it until it's proven false and then it's too late. They'd hate you to think this is an extremely violent resistance fighting an extremely violent state. You might start suggesting Arab lives are as important as Jew lives. Better to sprinkle some extra barbaric savagery wherever possible. It's a good sell

[Crewton]

The group of 200 forensic pathologists, anthropologists, radiologists and other experts gathered from around the world to examine the remains of victims of the Hamas attack reported that they "were executed, bound and burned alive, and others were found decapitated – many of whom were babies. However, they said it was difficult to ascertain whether they were decapitated before or after death."

So it may be true that some babies were beheaded by the attackers, but those experts couldn't be sure. 

"40 babies beheaded" certainly has huge emotional impact, though it's debatable as to whether a less dramatic claim based on full post-mortems would have changed Israel's response or public mood.

Meanwhile, the casualty figures issued by the Hamas-run Gaza Health Ministry are being used unquestioningly for their undoubted emotional impact without such independent forensic verification.

Both protagonists are indulging in propaganda war as well as a physical war. To think otherwise is naïve.

https://themedialine.org/top-stories/evidence-on-display-at-israels-forensic-pathology-center-confirms-hamas-atrocities/

[Alph]

I don't even need to argue with that. Better I just agree. 

Israeli forensic teams say they find evidence of horrific attack. But they can't be sure if some of the butchering was after. 

Meanwhile the people of Gaza are exaggerating the effects of indiscriminate bombing. 

"Actors" I think somebody said earlier in the thread. 

Edited November 5, 2023 by Alpha

[Alph]

https://imeu.org/article/fact-sheet-israels-history-of-spreading-disinformation

Just in case anybody thinks Israel never lie. 

Of course there's lying from Palestinians. They're currently being illegally occupied and ethnically cleansed. So a balanced argument right now seems a bit of a joke. 

[Bob The Badger]

4 hours ago, Tamworthram said:

One small, but important (IMO) point of order. Shouldn’t you have said Israeli response rather than Jewish response?
 

Apart from that, I agree.

I think that's fair enough.

But sadly, the only Jewish people I know (only 3 tbf) supported at least the initial response.

I  have deliberately not talked about it since because if they still do I'd just get irritated.

I'd be interested in the split between Israeli/Jewish feelings and those of Jewish people elsewhere. 

[Comrade 86]

1 hour ago, Alpha said:

The beheaded babies/rape seems more and more like the propaganda to paint Hamas as monsters so that Israel can do their horrific work and it looks civil by comparison. 

What Hamas did do though seems bad enough from independent evidence. They were trying to kidnap women and children but were shooting men at point blank range. They were gathering them in shelters or houses and throwing grenades in. That accounts for the images of charred bodies. 

Most of the evidence of mass rape, beheadings etc seems to only come from Israel forensic teams and it's not been independently verified. Israel have a history of  "evidence"

What Israel also don't mention is their Hannibal Directive. To open fire without restraint even if that means killing hostages. I mean, we know this anyway because they're bombing Gaza and if the hostages are still alive it's because Hamas are keeping them safe. Some of the damage from October 7th isn't consistent with Hamas weaponry but at the end of the day Hamas were the ones that caused 1,400 deaths so the fact that IDF don't hold fire in hostage situations is probably not something to give too much significance? 

Another one is the hospital strikes. We saw "proof" that the rocket was from Hamas. But that proof is not conclusive after all. 

And then there was the journalists private screening they were invited to. A "horrifying compilation".... Oh I bet it was. Did it include the Duma attack? Nah. Did it mention Huwara? I doubt it. 

Israel lies. Yet we still buy it until it's proven false and then it's too late. They'd hate you to think this is an extremely violent resistance fighting an extremely violent state. You might start suggesting Arab lives are as important as Jew lives. Better to sprinkle some extra barbaric savagery wherever possible. It's a good sell

Yeah, bad things happen during wars. I think that's established and I don't doubt Hamas are every bit as naughty as the Israelis, but the point I was really making was how easily duped some folk are. What's the most horrific image you could think of? Beheaded babies. OK, let's go with that. Really?

It's hard to fathom why folk are so quick to believe what is essentially wartime propaganda from the IDF. Perhaps they believe the propaganda, not because they lack the wit to examine the information on their feeds, but because they lack the will.

In terms of civilian casualties and child casualties specifically, this conflict already massively outstrips the Russian - Ukraine war, yet look at the vastly different reactions elicited from Western leaders and media outlets. It's marked to say the least and there's little chatter anymore concerning proportionate responses. Make of that what you will.

[Crewton]

7 hours ago, Alpha said:

Israeli forensic teams say they find evidence of horrific attack. But they can't be sure if some of the butchering was after. 

Just for clarity, they weren't solely Israeli, they included volunteer experts from around the world. 

[Alph]

3 hours ago, Crewton said:

Just for clarity, they weren't solely Israeli, they included volunteer experts from around the world. 

There's no evidence of 40 beheaded babies. There isn't. It was a lie. 

Why are you so desperate to defend Israel? They are the occupiers. Palestinians are the oppressed. Hamas are vile but do you think it's not pretty much part of the game that you'll face a militant resistance when you're an Apartheid state killing Palestinians and stealing their homes. 

What right have they got. All I hear is "Holocaust". Feck that. That does not give them the right to do what they do in West Bank. Nothing does. 

What's the UN take on Israel? Human Rights Watch? Amnesty Int? Save The Children? 

You know what they do in West Bank? You know right? 

And you know Gaza is a prison? Patrolled by gun boats and jet fighters? Fenced in? 

And it gets plunged into darkness while Palestinians die in their thousands. Not Hamas. Palestinians. 

And is anyone here stupid enough to think this wipes out Hamas? Really? How many people have come on this thread and suggested it will make them stronger? Or radicalise more Palestinians? It's bloody obvious to anybody. Everybody. So what are they doing then? Take into consideration their actions in West Bank. 

Everything is disproportionate. 

Do you see the amount of Jews not crying "anti-Semitism"?. Do you see the amount of Jews calling this genocide? Do you know of JewsForJustice? What do these people make of Israel's behaviour for decades? 

Everybody was there with their Ukraine flags in their gardens. Changing their profile picture to Ukraine flags. Offering them a bedroom. Why? Because they agreed bombing the s*** out of people is generally not nice. 

But Israel have done this for decades. And they kill Palestinians where there are no Hamas. 

But rather than accept it we've got people on here saying no. These Arabs have no right to fight back. Israel has a right to defend itself. 

Thousands dead in Gaza. Thousands dead in the last decade. People burned alive, stoned, dragged from their homes by settlers and beaten to death. Protesters shot with live ammunition. Video evidence from Israel proven fake. Lies from Netenyahu and leaks about what he really thinks of Hamas. 

Are you going to offer up an equal defence for Russia's invasion? Is anyone? No. Some are barely willing to acknowledge any of the actual facts Putin laid down. Because once you start dropping bombs on hospitals you generally lose support

But no. Not Israel. People will leap to find a defence for illegal occupation. For the disproportionate killings of innocent people. 'Well they've faced ethnic cleansing so cut em some slack. They're defensive'

Nope. Only an idiot thinks they're there for Hamas. They're no better than Hamas. They lie. They murder. They're terrorists. But Palestinians aren't. They just lose everything. There for Hamas my backside. 

They're there for the "peace corridor." For the handshake with Saudi Arabia and to threaten Iran. They're there to secure natural resources. They've been saying it for frcking decades. Go check. 

Or are you going to tell me this is a hostage rescue? It's self defence? It's defeating Hamas?

anti-Semitism this and Holocaust that. The air stinks of Islamophobia. If Palestinians were white Europeans there'd be crocodile tears pissing out of the lot of you.

https://imeu.org/article/fact-sheet-israels-history-of-spreading-disinformation again for anyone who missed it. Just how are they better than Hamas? They're just more efficient at killing. 

Edited November 6, 2023 by Alpha

[Carl Sagan]

Wow, this thread's become a cesspit hasn't it?

First of, when Hamas invaded Israel on 7th October it was surely the most shocking and evil terror attack of my lifetime. Hundreds of party goers simply slaughtered at a music festival. As someone who frequently attends gigs and festivals, oh my god. Imagining what happened there. You don't even have to imagine because there's terrible footage if you want to force yourself to see it. Yet that was the least worst of it. Families just shot in their beds, or brought out, there hands tied behind their backs with wire, and simply burnt alive. Yes, babies beheaded. Women raped, then their breasts cut off as trophies. The perpetrators glorying in it in their own GoPro footage, or filming it on their victims' phones, posting it to their victims' social media accounts.

Hundreds including babies, toddlers, and the elderly, once in the concentration camps in their early lives, now taken hostage by these evil people at the end of their lives. With maybe 10 British hostages who we don't hear anything about.

Whatever @Alphamight say, this is a fight against evil. And if your only argument is to claim that "babies weren't beheaded they were simply shot in the head", you don't have much of an argument.

But it's also true that Netanyahu is evil too. A corrupt, incompetent politician clinging to power through extremists or else he'll be tried for his own crimes. And on his watch the Israeli army, once so powerful, became so slapdash. Leaving him in the position of being unable to defend Israel's borders, meaning Hamas might come and slaughter thousands more next week, or next month, or next year.

Clearly Hamas acted in the certain knowledge Israel would seek retribution. They would have assumed a near instant Israeli ground offensive to recover the hostages and mete out revenge, and they would have been ready. Lying in wait, their best laid plans ready to use their tunnels and well-prepared defences, fighting on their home turf, expecting to kill lots of Israeli soldiers. They weren't counting on Netanyahu being quite so evil in return.

The Israeli PM knew his position was untenable once hundreds more Israeli soldiers started dying, so instead he decided not to send them in to die. And decided to bomb Gaza back to the stone age instead. The whole situation is horrible.

If there's a ceasefire, then Hamas simply regroups and carries on murdering Israelis, in the hope of killing every single Jew and destroying the state of Israel. If there's no ceasefire, it seems thousands more Palestinians will be killed.

It is a war. One way to stop the fighting would be for Hamas, the governing power in Gaza, to release their hostages and surrender before any more Palestinians die. That's normally how wars end, when one side is clearly militarily superior than the other and will keep killing the other side unless they surrender. But one thing that makes this no ordinary war is that the Hamas leaders couldn't really care less about the non-Hamas Palestinians, hence using them and the Israeli hostages as human shields. 

And if Israel stop before eradicating Hamas, or risk too many ground troops in the conflict, Netanyahu is toast so he isn't going to do that. And, after what happened a month ago, it's clear no Israeli leader can allow Hamas to remain in Gaza, even if Netanyahu falls.

Perhaps the Palestinian people will turn on Hamas, but that doesn't look at all likely. No foreign power is going to step in to "keep the peace" and provide some sort of buffer zone, as this war is too horrific. So the world watches in horror, as we all do. I don't know the solution, but I do know it is wrong to belittle what Hamas did a month ago. And I know the Israelis bombing Gaza is a horrible thing. Just as Britain bombing German cities and Germany bombing British cities, and America nuking Japanese cities in WWII, were all terrible things. The America argument for doing that then is probably similar to the Israeli one now: why should they have thousands of American troops die to force the Japanese to surrender, when they could do it without American casualties?

It's very hard to see how it can end. And especially how it can end well in any way at this point. 

[Alph]

4 hours ago, Carl Sagan said:

Wow, this thread's become a cesspit hasn't it?

First of, when Hamas invaded Israel on 7th October it was surely the most shocking and evil terror attack of my lifetime. Hundreds of party goers simply slaughtered at a music festival. As someone who frequently attends gigs and festivals, oh my god. Imagining what happened there. You don't even have to imagine because there's terrible footage if you want to force yourself to see it. Yet that was the least worst of it. Families just shot in their beds, or brought out, there hands tied behind their backs with wire, and simply burnt alive. Yes, babies beheaded. Women raped, then their breasts cut off as trophies. The perpetrators glorying in it in their own GoPro footage, or filming it on their victims' phones, posting it to their victims' social media accounts.

Hundreds including babies, toddlers, and the elderly, once in the concentration camps in their early lives, now taken hostage by these evil people at the end of their lives. With maybe 10 British hostages who we don't hear anything about.

Whatever @Alphamight say, this is a fight against evil. And if your only argument is to claim that "babies weren't beheaded they were simply shot in the head", you don't have much of an argument.

But it's also true that Netanyahu is evil too. A corrupt, incompetent politician clinging to power through extremists or else he'll be tried for his own crimes. And on his watch the Israeli army, once so powerful, became so slapdash. Leaving him in the position of being unable to defend Israel's borders, meaning Hamas might come and slaughter thousands more next week, or next month, or next year.

Clearly Hamas acted in the certain knowledge Israel would seek retribution. They would have assumed a near instant Israeli ground offensive to recover the hostages and mete out revenge, and they would have been ready. Lying in wait, their best laid plans ready to use their tunnels and well-prepared defences, fighting on their home turf, expecting to kill lots of Israeli soldiers. They weren't counting on Netanyahu being quite so evil in return.

The Israeli PM knew his position was untenable once hundreds more Israeli soldiers started dying, so instead he decided not to send them in to die. And decided to bomb Gaza back to the stone age instead. The whole situation is horrible.

If there's a ceasefire, then Hamas simply regroups and carries on murdering Israelis, in the hope of killing every single Jew and destroying the state of Israel. If there's no ceasefire, it seems thousands more Palestinians will be killed.

It is a war. One way to stop the fighting would be for Hamas, the governing power in Gaza, to release their hostages and surrender before any more Palestinians die. That's normally how wars end, when one side is clearly militarily superior than the other and will keep killing the other side unless they surrender. But one thing that makes this no ordinary war is that the Hamas leaders couldn't really care less about the non-Hamas Palestinians, hence using them and the Israeli hostages as human shields. 

And if Israel stop before eradicating Hamas, or risk too many ground troops in the conflict, Netanyahu is toast so he isn't going to do that. And, after what happened a month ago, it's clear no Israeli leader can allow Hamas to remain in Gaza, even if Netanyahu falls.

Perhaps the Palestinian people will turn on Hamas, but that doesn't look at all likely. No foreign power is going to step in to "keep the peace" and provide some sort of buffer zone, as this war is too horrific. So the world watches in horror, as we all do. I don't know the solution, but I do know it is wrong to belittle what Hamas did a month ago. And I know the Israelis bombing Gaza is a horrible thing. Just as Britain bombing German cities and Germany bombing British cities, and America nuking Japanese cities in WWII, were all terrible things. The America argument for doing that then is probably similar to the Israeli one now: why should they have thousands of American troops die to force the Japanese to surrender, when they could do it without American casualties?

It's very hard to see how it can end. And especially how it can end well in any way at this point. 

You call the thread a cesspit and then post that. Like the only point I've made is babies weren't beheaded so it's fine. 

Okay let's walk through it. 

How does what's happening in Gaza eliminate Hamas? 

Are Hamas in West Bank? 

If I came to you before October 7th and showed you the data of civilian deaths and came with horrifying examples like families being burned alive and a whole list of barbaric crimes commited by IDF forces, crimes noted by every Human Rights group, then what would you say? 

(Good work on mentioning Holocaust. Always a good defence for a government mass murdering a specific people and driving them from their land. Zzzz)