Alph Posted November 2, 2023 Author Share Posted November 2, 2023 20 minutes ago, Crewton said: I'm not convinced that you do - and you seem to be confusing "explanation" and "context" with "excuse" and seem to be taking too much of what I've posted personally (it wasn't meant to be) - so I'll leave you to your thread now and hope that this lamentable and unnecessary bloodbath ends far sooner than my most optimistic expectation. I did take it personal since most of this thread is me ranting! Can't help it!! I don't know Jewish history deeply but I feel I'm at least aware of the treatment of Jews. The segregation and the pogroms. The expulsion of Jews. But also some things I didn't know was the treatment of Jews from places like Ethiopia when migrating to Israel. I just can't draw a line between fear, paranoia, security and the way Israel behaves for the last few decades. Like I can join the dots to a certain point. But then it just looks like they're doing to Palestinians what has happened to Jews. There's no balance and "disproportionate" is the word of the day. Actual state terrorism, making a mockery of international law. This bombing of Gaza... It's totally in line with the way Israel behave. I apologise if I was overly aggressive or rude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highgate Posted November 2, 2023 Share Posted November 2, 2023 6 hours ago, Crewton said: Are we to assume that Khameini also wants his own people to "be able to determine their fate and get rid of thugs"? I suspect not. It's reminiscent of Erdogan, just a few days ago, proclaiming that Hamas "were not terrorists" : I imagine the leadership of the PKK choked on their breakfasts at that one. Israelis at least have the choice whether to get rid of Netanyahu or not - that looked on the cards until October 7th. I've seen the conspiracy theories about that, both the plausible and risible ones, but whatever caused the IDF to drop their guard, there's little doubt in my mind that Hamas took the opportunity/bait since no-one from their organisation has denied it was them. The earlier analogy with the SS was pretty offensive and extreme IMO but is often made by the same kind of people who excuse Putin for using similar tactics in Ukraine "because NATO provoked him". FWIW, I think Israel's response is counter-productive and. like the original Hamas attack, not likely to be easily forgotten or forgiven. (Incidentally, where were all those marching in London and elsewhere at the weekend when the Uighurs plight needed to be highlighted? How many didn't make it home from the "Free Tibet" marches that they didn't attend? Why is the Palestinians plight seen differently? Is it 'sexier'? Or is it more about who they're fighting?) Ultimately, both the revised charter of Hamas and the words of Khameini, if enacted, would lead to collosal loss of life, mass displacement of Jews (again), and virtual serfdom under an Islamic Republic (as is still called for in Hamas' charter). All that is contrary to what is demanded by the UN and supported by most of the world's democracies at least - a genuine 2-State solution based on the 1967 borders - and so, theoretically at least, those calling for the destruction of the State of Israel are themselves "warmongers" and potential murderers. Yet they're not the focus of either criticism or entreaties. Finally, I will say that, in some senses, I agree with those who point out that this conflict didn't start on October 7th : it didn't even start with the events of 1947/48; or with the Balfour declaration; it effectively started around 627 AD at Medina. If people don't understand why Israel is such a belligerent nation, or why Jews outside of Israel look upon it as their potential refuge, they really should read a little wider and perhaps more deeply than X, Tik-Tok and YouTube videos. I assume they want nothing of the sort. Iran's regime is appalling, as it has been ever since the US and UK toppled their nascent democracy in the 1950s. The point was merely that your suggestion that Iran 'wants to kill all the Jews' isn't accurate. What they want is to overthrow the state of Israel and bring Palestine back into existence as it were. They would happily do it peacefully if they could, obviously that's not viable. Whatever their plans, things would be far better if they would stay out of it altogether. Yeah, the actions of Hamas and the Israeli government will only serve to prolong the hatred and conflict. Of that there isn't really any doubt. I don't know why comparing the Palestine protests to the plight of the Uighurs is helpful. The point is that Israel is carrying out this bombing of Gaza with the full support of many, even most, western governments. Hence people protest at that support as well as the Israeli actions themselves. Was the point to suggest that the opponents of Israel and Netanyahu are actually really motivated by anti-Semitism (in the narrower anti-Jewish meaning of the word)? If so, that's a pretty weak argument to be making. I think implying that Hamas are not 'the focus of criticism or entreaties', is wildly wide of the mark. Is there anyone here who doesn't criticize Hamas? I think being critical of Hamas is the default position for the majority in the West. I certainly don't want to see the destruction of Israel, although it's easy to argue that the state should never have been created in the manner it was. The irony is, in order to compensate the Jews for the horrors committed against them in Europe during the holocaust (at least that was part of the motivation), the West, I suppose I should say the UK with the assent of the US, gifted them something that wasn't theirs to give, namely land belonging to the Palestinians. It is easy to understand why Israel is so belligerent, they have suffered centuries of persecution without good reason (more from Christians than Muslims it should be noted) and now after the creation of their state they are surrounded by nations who believe that the creation of Israel in the first place was unjust (not an unfounded belief) and who believe also that Israel's treatment of the native Palestinians has been itself brutal and unjust (obviously true). So Israel has always been in a precarious position and they know it. What's not likely to be on people minds much are the events of the 7th century.... unfortunately much more recent events are likely to be occupying people's thoughts on every side. Ramrob and Alph 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GboroRam Posted November 2, 2023 Share Posted November 2, 2023 4 hours ago, Alpha said: Ah, well no hard feelings I hope. No, not from me of course. Alph 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uttoxram75 Posted November 2, 2023 Share Posted November 2, 2023 Norman, Stive Pesley, Mostyn6 and 7 others 4 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Posted November 3, 2023 Share Posted November 3, 2023 1 hour ago, uttoxram75 said: Well, with Saudi Arabia seemingly set to be a shoe-in for the 2034 World Cup, they'll probably finance a ceremonial destruction of a couple of iconic towers as an opening ceremony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ram-Alf Posted November 3, 2023 Share Posted November 3, 2023 18 hours ago, Crewton said: Finally, I will say that, in some senses, I agree with those who point out that this conflict didn't start on October 7th : it didn't even start with the events of 1947/48; or with the Balfour declaration; it effectively started around 627 AD at Medina. If people don't understand why Israel is such a belligerent nation, or why Jews outside of Israel look upon it as their potential refuge, they really should read a little wider and perhaps more deeply than X, Tik-Tok and YouTube videos. There's been Pogroms for 150/200 years and more, Russia in the late 1800s shipped 10s of 1000s of Jews out, London saw a huge wave of Jewish migrants, Lots ended up in Whitechapel, There were riots from the locals who were already living in squalor/slums. Now the $60k question, Why do so many hate the Jews(not going down the road of Germany)I understand they are a business like people, USA shows this, The press is widely owned by Jewish people, Hatton Garden is heavily influenced by Jewish businessmen, I don't feel threatened by Israel and never have, Then there's religions out there that are a threat. As for those other Nations that coral different peoples and you hear diddly squat from protesters it's because it's driven by social media, News outlets, Friends and bored people...imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alph Posted November 3, 2023 Author Share Posted November 3, 2023 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alph Posted November 3, 2023 Author Share Posted November 3, 2023 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leeds Ram Posted November 3, 2023 Share Posted November 3, 2023 https://lawliberty.org/the-road-to-palestine/ https://thecritic.co.uk/the-limits-of-vengeance/ my two published pieces on this issue. Crewton, cstand, Rev and 1 other 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramrob Posted November 3, 2023 Share Posted November 3, 2023 El Ghazi contract terminated: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/67312754 Am I missing something? What has he said that ‘wasn’t tolerable for the club’? He said this week: "I condemn the killing of all innocent civilians in Palestine and Israel. "My sympathies are with the innocent victims of this conflict irrespective of their nationality. I am committed to a peaceful and integrated Middle East region. "To the extent my previous statements on social media have been misunderstood, I would like to make clear that I stand for peace and humanity for all." cstand 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramit Posted November 3, 2023 Share Posted November 3, 2023 Crowded entrance gate of Gaza's biggest hospital Al-Shifa bombed. Want to see the pics and videos? No you don't. Ramrob 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alph Posted November 3, 2023 Author Share Posted November 3, 2023 But the Holocaust happened and a Palestinian State would be a terrorist state. So it's fine. It's not like they're Europeans dying. That's the main thing. It's their own fault for not separating themselves from Hamas. They need to be more liberal. More democratic. Like Israel and the Ethiopian Jews and Arabs that live there. State Bill passed in 2018 benefits all. It's more democratic than Iran. What more do you want? Okay, so Israel occasionally borrow houses and set people on fire. And sometimes they can be heavy handed. But the Holocaust happened. And it was their land anyway before the Romans drove them out. So the Arabs only have a few years of squatters rights. Now I've admitted some minor misbehaviour by Israel then I can continue, from my neutral position, to support the IDF doing to Palestinians what Europeans did to the Jews. Those parasites like JewsForJusticeForPalestinians are Antisemitic #NoCeasefire #LightsOut #BombsAway #NoHamas=Peace God those Americans love funding peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alph Posted November 3, 2023 Author Share Posted November 3, 2023 1 hour ago, Ramrob said: El Ghazi contract terminated: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/67312754 Am I missing something? What has he said that ‘wasn’t tolerable for the club’? He said this week: "I condemn the killing of all innocent civilians in Palestine and Israel. "My sympathies are with the innocent victims of this conflict irrespective of their nationality. I am committed to a peaceful and integrated Middle East region. "To the extent my previous statements on social media have been misunderstood, I would like to make clear that I stand for peace and humanity for all." He said Israel were committing genocide in his original post and followed with "From the River to the Sea, Palestine will be free". What El Ghazi did was bring the game into disrepute and I swear on the life of a slave, building a world cup stadium, that not even free speech will tarnish that reputation. Football doesn't do politics... Stive Pesley 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted November 3, 2023 Share Posted November 3, 2023 Quote Mr Sunak has asked the Home Secretary Suella Braverman to support the police in "doing everything necessary to protect the sanctity of Armistice Day and Remembrance Sunday". Unbelievable - don't anyone go saying that war is bad on Remembrance Sunday - of all days!. He'll have us know that it's a very lucrative business if done right 😔 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev Posted November 3, 2023 Share Posted November 3, 2023 1 hour ago, Stive Pesley said: Unbelievable - don't anyone go saying that war is bad on Remembrance Sunday - of all days!. He'll have us know that it's a very lucrative business if done right 😔 Braverman has responded, calling the march in support of Palestine, which is not intended to go anywhere near the Cenotaph, deliberately so, a March of Hate. I'd suggest she fits all 3 of Cummins descriptions of civil servants and politicians. uttoxram75, Stive Pesley, Comrade 86 and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littleover ram Posted November 4, 2023 Share Posted November 4, 2023 14 hours ago, Leeds Ram said: https://thecritic.co.uk/the-limits-of-vengeance/ my two published pieces on this issue. the quote you attributed to Churchill at the start was actually said by Arthur ‘bomber’ Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ram-Alf Posted November 4, 2023 Share Posted November 4, 2023 3 hours ago, littleover ram said: the quote you attributed to Churchill at the start was actually said by Arthur ‘bomber’ Harris He did... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leeds Ram Posted November 4, 2023 Share Posted November 4, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, littleover ram said: the quote you attributed to Churchill at the start was actually said by Arthur ‘bomber’ Harris I believe churchill also said it after visiting Coventry. This is my source 🙂 https://www.democraticaudit.com/2016/12/20/they-shall-reap-the-whirlwind-how-churchill-harnessed-christianity-in-the-service-of-war/ But if I am wrong I'll alert the editors! Edited November 4, 2023 by Leeds Ram Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crewton Posted November 4, 2023 Share Posted November 4, 2023 Guardian Long Read on the Hamas attack on Kibbutzes and other towns on October 7th. I did think at the time that the sight of some British Socialists initially hailing the attacks displayed a high degree of ignorance about the nature of some of the settlements being attacked and the principles of the attackers. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/04/four-weeks-on-horror-lingers-in-israels-silent-kibbutzim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crewton Posted November 4, 2023 Share Posted November 4, 2023 And on the subject of "SS levels of retribution" I'm not convinced the IDF has yet reached that particular nadir - hopefully they never will. Two examples, each the consequence of the killing of a single Nazi :- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Reinhard_Heydrich#:~:text=The assassination attempt%2C code-named,wounds on 4 June 1942. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oradour-sur-Glane_massacre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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