Palestine

[MaltRam]

1 hour ago, Mick Brolly said:

Who's lying Hamas or Israel 

Both of them. Incessantly.

Hamas let slip the dogs of war, and they only want escalation. They can't wipe out Israel on their own, they need a broader regional conflict. They'll be chuffed.

No point anyone clutching their pearls about it.

If I was Hamas, I'd hide in schools and hospitals and lie about it. If I was Israel, I'd bomb them and lie about it.

If I was Iran, or Hamas, or Islamic Jihad, I'd bomb a hospital to enrage the Arab world against Israel.

Or maybe a mistake happened...but mistakes will always happen in war.

We might never find out for sure, we will all have our opinions, but it's war. People dying is the whole point.

All this Geneva convention business has only ever applied in exceptional and narrow circumstances. Did we care in Dresden?

You can dance on the head of a pin about where moral responsibility lies, but what always happens is that people who just want to live their lives end up in pieces.

[ariotofmyown]

Finally someone sensible...

"The destruction of Al Ahli hospital is a devastating loss of human life. The UK has been clear. The protection of civilian life must come first. The UK will work with our allies to find out what has happened and protect innocent civilians in Gaza."

James Cleverly🇬🇧 

 

 

Edited October 17, 2023 by ariotofmyown

[uttoxram75]

2 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

To defend the much hated MSM, most of the "news" here is just coming from tweets from either side. I'm not sure the media can really do anything to verify these claims. I'm sure they are trying to though.

The despised BBC is still one of the most trusted news sources in the world, although it's been carefully hollowed out by populist pressure.

The BBC overall is brilliant imo. The depth and breadth of programming and information is generally first class. 

However, there is no doubt that in times of war or major political upheaval, it's news output is state controlled, as every country's main news outlet is.

Can you imagine any modern state not having some control over their main news?

You can find a lot of info about mi5/6 being involved in the BBC over the years if you wish to look for it.

As i've got older, i now take all main headlines with a pinch of salt and look around for alternative views before taking it all in.

The BBC are compelled to lie by omission rather than outright falsehoods. Stuff that would compromise the government or royal family or even nations that we back for political or trade reasons get a watered down version of events or even a news blackout.

 

One example i will use is Lord Mountbatten. Member of the Royal family, a war hero, uncle to King Charles 111.

When i was a kid, an old Uncle would always refer to him as Lord Mountbottom. My uncle had served in the Navy in WW2 and was a bit of a pisshead tbf. One day, in a sober moment, i asked him why he called him Mountbottom. He told me that was his nickname amongst the ratings for his penchant for young boys, apparently it was well known from the 1940's onwards.

 

Many years later, i read how Mountbatten was linked to the infamous Kincora Boys home in Belfast and the papers connected to the inquiries into the murders and sexual abuse there have been refused publication until 2064 and one particular report 2080!

Thats not just to protect the members of the Orange Order who ran the home, that's got to be a major member of the establishment or royalty.

People who control our media, BBC or otherwise, know about all this stuff, they knew about Saville.

They are not allowed to publish it.

 

 

[Eddie]

1 hour ago, Carl Sagan said:

Unfortunately, the first casualty of war is the truth. And it's pretty much impossible for us to verify claim vs counterclaim. In an age of photoshop and AI, where material is deliberately created to inflame a situation that is already at boiling point, people should think about what they're reading and not share it unless they have good grounds for believing it's true, rather than it just being what they want to believe. 

The only way to determine the perpetrators is to obtain bits of the rocket/bomb. Both sides use different offensive weaponry.

Of course, it could also be the case that a projectile (from either side) was intercepted (from the other side) and the debris from either or both fell on the hospital.

Ah, the fog of war.

[Carl Sagan]

1 hour ago, Eddie said:

The only way to determine the perpetrators is to obtain bits of the rocket/bomb. Both sides use different offensive weaponry.

Of course, it could also be the case that a projectile (from either side) was intercepted (from the other side) and the debris from either or both fell on the hospital.

Ah, the fog of war.

Indeed. And then that evidence can be (or claimed to be!) planted.

I do think the most credible evidence-based account I have seen is this from an open-source geolocation group who've developed expertise from examining rocket attacks in Ukraine 

But at the end of the thread they acknowledge this analysis cannot be 100% conclusive.

[Magicman]

6 minutes ago, Carl Sagan said:

Indeed. And then that evidence can be (or claimed to be!) planted.

I do think the most credible evidence-based account I have seen is this from an open-source geolocation group who've developed expertise from examining rocket attacks in Ukraine 

But at the end of the thread they acknowledge this analysis cannot be 100% conclusive.

As i said earlier it is fake attack claimed to be by Israel. 

[Alph]

Odd if it wasn't Israel then why did they claim it before deleting it? They getting hospitals and barracks mixed up again? Clumsy Israel. The UN need to stop attributing such a large amount of Civilian deaths to them. Remember when this was scripted... 

 

Anyway in other news, turns out Ukraine faked the whole invasion by Russia. Russia has actually only fired care packages. 

[Magicman]

5 hours ago, Alpha said:

Odd if it wasn't Israel then why did they claim it before deleting it? They getting hospitals and barracks mixed up again? Clumsy Israel. The UN need to stop attributing such a large amount of Civilian deaths to them. Remember when this was scripted... 

 

Anyway in other news, turns out Ukraine faked the whole invasion by Russia. Russia has actually only fired care packages. 

Your ignorance is amazing .

[PistoldPete]

8 hours ago, MaltRam said:

Both of them. Incessantly.

Hamas let slip the dogs of war, and they only want escalation. They can't wipe out Israel on their own, they need a broader regional conflict. They'll be chuffed.

No point anyone clutching their pearls about it.

If I was Hamas, I'd hide in schools and hospitals and lie about it. If I was Israel, I'd bomb them and lie about it.

If I was Iran, or Hamas, or Islamic Jihad, I'd bomb a hospital to enrage the Arab world against Israel.

Or maybe a mistake happened...but mistakes will always happen in war.

We might never find out for sure, we will all have our opinions, but it's war. People dying is the whole point.

All this Geneva convention business has only ever applied in exceptional and narrow circumstances. Did we care in Dresden?

You can dance on the head of a pin about where moral responsibility lies, but what always happens is that people who just want to live their lives end up in pieces.

A sensible ( rare on this thread ) if rather cynical post. I am not sure what Israel will gain from lying though , if they have bombed the hospital they should fess up to it. 
 

Will we ever find out? You would hope so . The UK has said it wants to get to the bottom of it. 
 

As for Dresden, a good point. Was Churchill ever branded a war criminal? 

[Alph]

33 minutes ago, Magicman said:

Your ignorance is amazing .

One day I'll wake up and realise it's all Palestinians fault. 

Their suffering, fake. Israel suffering, real. I'm catching on, see. 

Your guidance has been a massive help

[ariotofmyown]

8 hours ago, uttoxram75 said:

The BBC overall is brilliant imo. The depth and breadth of programming and information is generally first class. 

However, there is no doubt that in times of war or major political upheaval, it's news output is state controlled, as every country's main news outlet is.

Can you imagine any modern state not having some control over their main news?

You can find a lot of info about mi5/6 being involved in the BBC over the years if you wish to look for it.

As i've got older, i now take all main headlines with a pinch of salt and look around for alternative views before taking it all in.

The BBC are compelled to lie by omission rather than outright falsehoods. Stuff that would compromise the government or royal family or even nations that we back for political or trade reasons get a watered down version of events or even a news blackout.

 

One example i will use is Lord Mountbatten. Member of the Royal family, a war hero, uncle to King Charles 111.

When i was a kid, an old Uncle would always refer to him as Lord Mountbottom. My uncle had served in the Navy in WW2 and was a bit of a pisshead tbf. One day, in a sober moment, i asked him why he called him Mountbottom. He told me that was his nickname amongst the ratings for his penchant for young boys, apparently it was well known from the 1940's onwards.

 

Many years later, i read how Mountbatten was linked to the infamous Kincora Boys home in Belfast and the papers connected to the inquiries into the murders and sexual abuse there have been refused publication until 2064 and one particular report 2080!

Thats not just to protect the members of the Orange Order who ran the home, that's got to be a major member of the establishment or royalty.

People who control our media, BBC or otherwise, know about all this stuff, they knew about Saville.

They are not allowed to publish it.

 

 

The MSM, including the BBC, is clearly not perfect. But some of the alternatives are sending us down a more slippery slope.

[Mostyn6]

10 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

I am not sure what Israel will gain from lying

are you trolling now?

[Ram-Alf]

9 hours ago, Highgate said:

It could well be then that there are powerful influences in both Hamas and the Israeli government that are very comfortable with a state of outright war.  That's a very bleak thought. 

Hamas=Iran

Israel=Hawkes in the USA 

[Turk Thrust]

Of course, there are some on here, such as Ramit, who truly believe that Israel deliberately allowed over a thousand of their citizens to be massacred as a pretext to invade Gaza. Will they I wonder now hold that Hamas deliberately bombed the hospital to gain international support? Both as ludicrous as the other

[PistoldPete]

1 hour ago, Alpha said:

One day I'll wake up and realise it's all Palestinians fault. 

Their suffering, fake. Israel suffering, real. I'm catching on, see. 

Your guidance has been a massive help

Oh so Israel’s suffering isn’t real? 
 

You see try as you might to temper your bias you really can’t help yourself sometimes.

[PistoldPete]

3 minutes ago, Turk Thrust said:

Of course, there are some on here, such as Ramit, who truly believe that Israel deliberately allowed over a thousand of their citizens to be massacred as a pretext to invade Gaza. Will they I wonder now hold that Hamas deliberately bombed the hospital to gain international support? Both as ludicrous as the other

Indeed. Some of the more ludicrous claims about Israel targeting civilians I have tried to call out on .  I find it equally ludicrous that Palestinians would deliberately bomb their own hospital. 
 

both extremes are crass and offensive. 

[PistoldPete]

7 hours ago, Magicman said:

As i said earlier it is fake attack claimed to be by Israel. 

Magicman we do not know the truth. Claiming it as fake attack is misleading. It was a stray bomb… from which side we do not know. 

[Alph]

3 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

Oh so Israel’s suffering isn’t real? 
 

You see try as you might to temper your bias you really can’t help yourself sometimes.

I have admitted my bias. It's based on UN civilian numbers, expansion, blockades, oppression, disproportionate retaliations. Several times through the thread I've made it clear I'm pro Palestine. 

Only, I didn't suggest Israel's suffering is fake. That's just what you want to read. That's why we spent so long talking about anti-Semitism. 

I merely mocked the idea that the videos I posted and the horrific footage of Gaza is "actors" according to Magicman.

That's was a good attempt to gaslight. But I'm sorry. I'm not anti Jew. Just anti Israel expansionist. 

When the bombs dropped on Ukraine killing thousands of civilians nobody tried to justify it in the West. Nobody said, as you pretty much said, accidents happen. 

Different story when it's a place like Gaza, besieged, blockaded, without fuel, power, electricity given 24 hours to evacuate before being attacked by the "defenders". Then when the bombs kill civilians it's an accident. Who could predict bombing a terrorist organisation hidden amongst a couple of million people would end in civilian deaths. 

6,000 dead civilian Palestinians dead between 2008 and recent events. We're at 3,000 or something now? Illegal settlements by Israel. 700,000 settlers in occupied Palestine. This is all on the UN website. 

That is a lot of actors and a lot of conspiracy/antisemitism 

 

[Mostyn6]

18 minutes ago, Turk Thrust said:

Of course, there are some on here, such as Ramit, who truly believe that Israel deliberately allowed over a thousand of their citizens to be massacred as a pretext to invade Gaza. Will they I wonder now hold that Hamas deliberately bombed the hospital to gain international support? Both as ludicrous as the other

 

10 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

Indeed. Some of the more ludicrous claims about Israel targeting civilians I have tried to call out on .  I find it equally ludicrous that Palestinians would deliberately bomb their own hospital. 
 

both extremes are crass and offensive. 

well here is the thing, what is obvious in my mind is that both sides care not for "Joe Public". There is an interview in this thread, posted by REV yesterday, where the spokesman for Israel is asked something like "How do you expect sick and poorly people to flee from the hospital?"..."What if they cannot leave physically?"... Now I may be paraphrasing the questions, but the premise was the same. I won't tell you the response, as I think you should go and watch it. It will answer your questions above. As ludicrous as it sounds, it is the case.

The painful thing for me, not backing a horse in this race, is that the people of Palestine and the people of the Israel border are merely "collateral" in this and there's nothing but soundbytes (for media/PR) to state otherwise, from EITHER side.

[PistoldPete]

2 minutes ago, Alpha said:

I have admitted my bias. It's based on UN civilian numbers, expansion, blockades, oppression, disproportionate retaliations. Several times through the thread I've made it clear I'm pro Palestine. 

Only, I didn't suggest Israel's suffering is fake. That's just what you want to read. That's why we spent so long talking about anti-Semitism. 

I merely mocked the idea that the videos I posted and the horrific footage of Gaza is "actors" according to Magicman.

That's was a good attempt to gaslight. But I'm sorry. I'm not anti Jew. Just anti Israel expansionist. 

When the bombs dropped on Ukraine killing thousands of civilians nobody tried to justify it in the West. Nobody said, as you pretty much said, accidents happen. 

Different story when it's a place like Gaza, besieged, blockaded, without fuel, power, electricity given 24 hours to evacuate before being attacked by the "defenders". Then when the bombs kill civilians it's an accident. Who could predict bombing a terrorist organisation hidden amongst a couple of million people would end in civilian deaths. 

6,000 dead civilian Palestinians dead between 2008 and recent events. We're at 3,000 or something now? Illegal settlements by Israel. 700,000 settlers in occupied Palestine. This is all on the UN website. 

That is a lot of actors and a lot of conspiracy/antisemitism 

 

But even here you show your bias. Who said there are 6,000 civilian deaths? Hamas is a proscribed terrorist group they are not civilians.