Women's World Cup

[sage]

On 16/08/2023 at 20:52, Stive Pesley said:

I mean - it was only already the front page of The S*n before everyone thought they'd discovered the joke by themselves

I discovered it like Colombus discovered America, unaware the Vikings had already been

[Comrade 86]

22 hours ago, FindernRam said:

Still think that the men's game is better but that's the misogynist in me according to my daughter.

You can enjoy both, no? There's no mutual exclusion. I concede that the men are 'better' but we've been playing the game a little longer, haven't we? 

[Stive Pesley]

16 hours ago, FindernRam said:

Definitely in terms of skill level and tactics.

But comparing top Womens match with say Newcastle the other day nowhere near in my humble view.

Fair point, I just feel like the quality of a football match is such an unpredictable thing in the first place that it seems a daft criteria to base "willingness to  watch" on.  We'd all be Man City (Men's team) fans if we wanted to be guaranteed a "good" match more often than not

I've said it before, but I've watched quite a few non-league games in my time and had some of the best times of my life. I just enjoy watching football as a social experience. Whether that's kids, women, men whatever. For me - coming away from a truly terrible 0-0 game and laughing about how crap it was is part of the fun. I guess I struggle to get into the mindset of people who would refuse to watch a game because they don't think it will be a high enough standard for them to enjoy!

[RadioactiveWaste]

7 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

Fair point, I just feel like the quality of a football match is such an unpredictable thing in the first place that it seems a daft criteria to base "willingness to  watch" on.  We'd all be Man City (Men's team) fans if we wanted to be guaranteed a "good" match more often than not

I've said it before, but I've watched quite a few non-league games in my time and had some of the best times of my life. I just enjoy watching football as a social experience. Whether that's kids, women, men whatever. For me - coming away from a truly terrible 0-0 game and laughing about how crap it was is part of the fun. I guess I struggle to get into the mindset of people who would refuse to watch a game because they don't think it will be a high enough standard for them to enjoy!

The key question, is it fun?

This world cup has been great fun.

It's also gratifying to see the general professionalism and organisation has been growing.

Coaching at the international level is clearly good in general.

Success breeding success for the women's game overall - the more women's football is seen to be entertaining and of a good standard, the more girls will take up the sport,the bigger the pool of players, the more likely technically brilliant players will make it as a profession.

In the future I could see the women's game ultimately becoming equal in technical aspects to the men's game,but the games playing out less physically (except Colombia, obvs) giving it a different feel but being immensely satisfying. Not saying it'll get there soon, but that's the direction.

[Stive Pesley]

10 minutes ago, RadioactiveWaste said:

The key question, is it fun?

Yup - and no one is expected to watch a sport that they don't find fun (for example - no I won't watch the golf)

Question to ask yourself here is "why is it not fun for you?"

In the example of golf I just find it very boring and slow to watch.

For @FindernRam he's saying it's because the players are women. That's not misogyny, but it is rooted in the institutional patriarchal structure of football as a game.  That's not something to be embarrassed about, or made to feel bad about, but by the same token there is no need to erect a load of scaffolding around the opinion to try and defend it. It's totally understandable 

 

[FindernRam]

I saw a report the other day where a US Uni had de-gendered various matches using computer technology and a large majority of viewers were unable to say from the videos which was male and which was female---or which was better. If I can find the link I'll post it here!

To clarify @Stive Pesley it was my daughter said I was misogynist. I didn't actually say it was because the players were women; merely that the standard in the WWC was generally not as good as the Premier or Championship. 

I'm sure someone can dig out the relevent stats: Pass completion, tackles shots on target etc.

[RoyMac5]

8 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

Yup - and no one is expected to watch a sport that they don't find fun (for example - no I won't watch the golf)

Question to ask yourself here is "why is it not fun for you?"

In the example of golf I just find it very boring and slow to watch.

For @FindernRam he's saying it's because the players are women. That's not misogyny, but it is rooted in the institutional patriarchal structure of football as a game.  That's not something to be embarrassed about, or made to feel bad about, but by the same token there is no need to erect a load of scaffolding around the opinion to try and defend it. It's totally understandable 

 

Indeed. I enjoy watching other football teams play for 1) the quality of the game and/or 2) the competitive aspects involved. I watch Derby as 3) the team I support, hoping to see both of those but mainly continue to watch even when I don't because of the emotional attachment. So at present I watch hardly any women's football but have watched the England matches for the competitive aspect. Will I watch more of the women's game, maybe when one or more of the three above aspects are involved. There's so much sport being played live and shown on tv decisions have to be made. Normally 3, 2, 1 for me Ted! 😄

[RadioactiveWaste]

9 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

Yup - and no one is expected to watch a sport that they don't find fun (for example - no I won't watch the golf)

Question to ask yourself here is "why is it not fun for you?"

In the example of golf I just find it very boring and slow to watch.

For @FindernRam he's saying it's because the players are women. That's not misogyny, but it is rooted in the institutional patriarchal structure of football as a game.  That's not something to be embarrassed about, or made to feel bad about, but by the same token there is no need to erect a load of scaffolding around the opinion to try and defend it. It's totally understandable 

 

I'd agree with all of that. Attitude and institutionalised attitudes take a long time to shift.

It's been a slow progress for women's football over a long timeframe. It's not come out of nowhere to be invented as thing by marketing but a lot of work over a lot of years has had to be done to bring the women's game to a point where it can't be ignored and dismissed and can be "sold" as legitimately professional level sports folks would want to watch for their entertainment.

[RoyMac5]

6 minutes ago, RadioactiveWaste said:

I'd agree with all of that. Attitude and institutionalised attitudes take a long time to shift.

It's been a slow progress for women's football over a long timeframe. It's not come out of nowhere to be invented as thing by marketing but a lot of work over a lot of years has had to be done to bring the women's game to a point where it can't be ignored and dismissed and can be "sold" as legitimately professional level sports folks would want to watch for their entertainment.

Or shift back. Didn't women's football draw huge crowds in the 20/30s was it before the FA banned women from playing?

[RadioactiveWaste]

1 minute ago, RoyMac5 said:

Or shift back. Didn't women's football draw huge crowds in the 20/30s was it before the FA banned women from playing?

That is a very good point.

[Comrade 86]

34 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Or shift back. Didn't women's football draw huge crowds in the 20/30s was it before the FA banned women from playing?

Never knew that. Either that it had previously been popular, or that women were banned from playing by the FA.

It's almost as if the governing bodies have always been Bamfords, isn't it?

Edited August 18, 2023 by Comrade 86
typo

[Turk Thrust]

43 minutes ago, RadioactiveWaste said:

I'd agree with all of that. Attitude and institutionalised attitudes take a long time to shift.

It's been a slow progress for women's football over a long timeframe. It's not come out of nowhere to be invented as thing by marketing but a lot of work over a lot of years has had to be done to bring the women's game to a point where it can't be ignored and dismissed and can be "sold" as legitimately professional level sports folks would want to watch for their entertainment.

I’ve been to quite a few women’s club football and it’s nowhere near the quality of women’s international football. Gates will always be low until quality improves

[RoyMac5]

https://www.thefa.com/womens-girls-football/heritage/kicking-down-barriers

Interesting piece on the FA site, even admitting (how could they not,lol, their ban).

"...By 1921 there were about 150 women’s football clubs. Matches were popular spectator events and some drew up to 45,000 fans. The future of the women’s game looked bright.

Despite its growing popularity and the re-emergence of international matches after World War One, controversy was just around the corner. Many factories closed and women went back into domestic life or retrained in professions such as bus conductors and nurses. At the same time, some people questioned whether football was damaging women’s health. Dr Mary Scharlieb of Harley Street for example described it as the “most unsuitable game, too much for a women’s physical frame”. 

BANNED

On 5 December 1921 The FA met at its headquarters in London and announced a ban on the women’s game from being played at the professional grounds and pitches of clubs affiliated to The FA, stating “the game of football is quite unsuitable for females and ought not to be encouraged.” 

The ban meant the women’s game was side-lined to being played in public parks for nearly 50 years..."

Edited August 18, 2023 by RoyMac5

[RadioactiveWaste]

3 minutes ago, Turk Thrust said:

I’ve been to quite a few women’s club football and it’s nowhere near the quality of women’s international football. Gates will always be low until quality improves

That's completely fair.

I do believe the higher profile of international matches will over time lead to bigger domestic pools of talent and ultimately higher quality club teams. Won't happen overnight but growing the game as a whole will grow the game at club level.

 

[RoyMac5]

13 minutes ago, Turk Thrust said:

I’ve been to quite a few women’s club football and it’s nowhere near the quality of women’s international football. Gates will always be low until quality improves

Exactly our season ticket sales won't be 22k next season if the football doesn't improve!

[Mucker1884]

A little known fact, but these are in fact the original lyrics to a rather popular little ditty around these parts, and a timely reminder of those shameful and inexcusable times of yore, as referenced above by @RoyMac5...

 

She's Bloomer washing,
With all of her might.
Guiding her linen to be all starched and white.
All those that see her, she's nowhere to hide,
Hanging out her washing on the line... out... side! 
(Clap, cla, Derby, cla, Derbyclap etc... Derby... etc)

 

 

[Comrade 86]

17 minutes ago, Turk Thrust said:

I’ve been to quite a few women’s club football and it’s nowhere near the quality of women’s international football. Gates will always be low until quality improves

I think I grasp what you're saying but when you watch Derby play, is it comparable to watching the England men's team? It seems an odd correlation. Sorry if I'm being thick.

Also, I think gates will be growing pretty rapidly after this world cup. Were the ladies team to secure Euro and World Championships at the same time, their profile will be through the roof. 

On a general note, it's fair enough that some extract less enjoyment than others, that's true of any form of entertainment, but make no mistake, women's football has landed and it's only going one way.

[Stive Pesley]

1 hour ago, RadioactiveWaste said:

I do believe the higher profile of international matches will over time lead to bigger domestic pools of talent and ultimately higher quality club teams. Won't happen overnight but growing the game as a whole will grow the game at club level

It's happening - playing football as a girl just wasn't even a "thing" for my generation. Even 20 years ago we had "Bend It Like Beckham"  where it was obviously still a weird and wonderful concept that a girl might be good/want to play football

Now we're at the point where it's already totally normal for girls to play - it's just another sport

Let's be honest - if (and it's a big if) England win the World Cup on Sunday - that's absolutely huge for the sport and huge for societies perception of how out-dated the football patriarchy is

[archram]

When I was a teenager in the 50s the local boys would only let me play football with them  if I agreed to be goalkeeper- improved my netball skills no end!

[cstand]

13 hours ago, archram said:

When I was a teenager in the 50s the local boys would only let me play football with them  if I agreed to be goalkeeper- improved my netball skills no end!

Fair play to you. 

Actually I was talking to my son the other day about women basketball or netball players might be lured to football to be goalkeepers in the future.