Academy thread 23/24

[Quagga]

On 24/12/2023 at 10:28, Crewton said:

It's rather telling to note that Notts Forest are trying to pretend this didn't happen, which is a sure sign that it hurts.

And clearly didn't pass on the highlights for RAMSTV

[Ghost of Clough]

Ridd has joined Mickleover on loan for a month.

[angieram]

Ryan Bartley nominated for DCFC.

 

Edited January 5 by angieram

[Caerphilly Ram]

2 hours ago, angieram said:

Ryan Bartley nominated for DCFC.

 

This is interesting, what does anyone who watches the academy regularly make of him? Palace have a decent academy reputation don’t they? I thought he was potentially a good pick up in the summer, would he be an option for the first time in time? 

[Ghost of Clough]

11 minutes ago, Caerphilly Ram said:

This is interesting, what does anyone who watches the academy regularly make of him? Palace have a decent academy reputation don’t they? I thought he was potentially a good pick up in the summer, would he be an option for the first time in time? 

He's only played 4 league games since recovering from injury. 2 of those were in December when he scored 2 goals in the 5-1 win over Reading. From the limited times I've seen him, I would say he has a bit of pace and is strong in the air (hence his 2 set piece goals).

I can't see him getting game time, with Cashin, Nelson, Bradley, Forsyth and Nyambe all being senior options at CB, and other youngsters such as Cox having a higher ceiling. It's hard to judge where Warne ranks Bardell in comparison due to injuries.

[Black ('n' White) Sheep]

32 minutes ago, Caerphilly Ram said:

This is interesting, what does anyone who watches the academy regularly make of him? Palace have a decent academy reputation don’t they? I thought he was potentially a good pick up in the summer, would he be an option for the first time in time? 

I think he and Palace parted ways partly because of his injury record and partly because he wanted a higher chance of senior football. 

He looks decent in the few games he's played... would like to see him play a few more games at that level before potentially putting him in with the 1st team though personally.

[RoyMac5]

"Derby County head coach Paul Warne would be happy to see some his academy youngsters go and seal loan moves to help with the next phase of their development.

Striker Dajaune Brown is one player who may benefit from a senior loan having previously attracted attention of leading National League sides. And Warne said: "Loans make players. Once they are out of the FA Youth Cup, then I would start loaning players out into the men's leagues. I have spoken to the academy, and I don't run it obviously, but I have my thoughts and that is that the likes of Dajaune should go and play out on loan.

"If you look at teams in the Premier League or the Champ, they try to get a non-league loan, then League Two and then League One. Once they come back, they have been developed by other clubs really. We can train and physically prepare them, but we can't give them the game time yet. The academy is trying to improve on and try to get the stronger players who can take men's football out there.

"I went on loan to Kettering when I signed for Wigan and it was the best thing I ever did. I was fit as a flea, mentally in a great place and got back into the team, scored on my first game back and then nicked a move to Rotherham. I really see the benefit of young players out."

 

[ramit]

On 05/01/2024 at 04:45, Caerphilly Ram said:

This is interesting, what does anyone who watches the academy regularly make of him? Palace have a decent academy reputation don’t they? I thought he was potentially a good pick up in the summer, would he be an option for the first time in time? 

Saw him against Reading.   As well as scoring two goals, Bartley was very solid defensively, my man of the match.

[angieram]

This is a great thread on X about what happened to the youngsters who played in our FA Cup tie against Chorley. You'll need to open it up and read right through.

 

[Srg]

8 minutes ago, angieram said:

This is a great thread on X about what happened to the youngsters who played in our FA Cup tie against Chorley. You'll need to open it up and read right through.

 

Not much for the overwhelming majority. Just goes to show, really. I was convinced Ibrahim was going to be great.

[Ghost of Clough]

1 hour ago, Srg said:

Not much for the overwhelming majority. Just goes to show, really. I was convinced Ibrahim was going to be great.

Our most promising youngsters from those age groups were already in the first team picture, hence them not being able to play due to the Covid groups. I think the U23s were struggling with injuries at that time too - with Festy only just returning to training.

JBrown,  Minkley, Buchanan, Bird, Knight, Dixon, Whittaker, Cashin, McDonald, ABrown, Sibley, Wilson and Stretton were all unavailable (some were training with the first team, others were injured) and would have been part of the U23 year groups.
Whilst those U18 year groups were less promising than others we've had come through, there were still a couple out injured who would have been part of the squad - Grewal-Pollard, Borkovic, Kelly

[Caerphilly Ram]

7 hours ago, angieram said:

This is a great thread on X about what happened to the youngsters who played in our FA Cup tie against Chorley. You'll need to open it up and read right through.

 

Interesting that Isaac Hutchinson has carved out a decent lower league career so far, there was a game or two under Rooney that he played and I thought he looked decent, already had a “man’s” physique, possibly scored in one of the games but I don’t remember clearly. But then Rooney seemed to stop using him, not sure if he got injured or something, but looked like a better option to me than Watson who Rooney seemed to be keen to use. 

[MackworthRamIsGod]

12 minutes ago, Caerphilly Ram said:

Interesting that Isaac Hutchinson has carved out a decent lower league career so far, there was a game or two under Rooney that he played and I thought he looked decent, already had a “man’s” physique, possibly scored in one of the games but I don’t remember clearly. But then Rooney seemed to stop using him, not sure if he got injured or something, but looked like a better option to me than Watson who Rooney seemed to be keen to use. 

I rated him; he looked good and yes he scored, I seem to recall in a cup game. Not sure he was used again.

He looked good to me.

Same with Timi Max Elsnik..looked good, scored the winning penalty in a shoot out and I honestly thought the next game he was ready. Never saw him again and he seems to be doing OK.

Let's hope Weston doesn't go the same way.

[Sed]

Was it Salford he scored against? Looked good in the game too

[Jram]

I’m obviously very pro-Warne but I do find it a little sad that there is only room for one up and coming youngster on our bench tonight for the EFL trophy

Compare it to teams like Liverpool, City, Arsenal who all regularly start/bench youngsters across all formats and play at a much higher level. Disappointing after seeing so many debuts in recent years 

[TheHomunculusLives]

Elsnik is now a full Slovenian international and has played Champions League football. I think he could definitely done a good job for Derby up to Championship level.

[Ghost of Clough]

Freddie Draper was released by our academy at 16 (now 20) and currently has 10 goals in 21 League 2 games. In the same age group is Darren Robinson, who our club regard as a much brighter prospect (hence us signing him as a 16 year old and not releasing him). League 2 is the minimum we should be loaning him out to, although personally I feel he's of lower League 1 standard. The same can be said of other youth players, who I don't think have been judged correctly.

Least week when talking about sending players out, Warne said "If you look at teams in the Premier League or the Champ, they try to get a non-league loan, then League Two and then League One. Once they come back, they have been developed by other clubs really. We can train and physically prepare them, but we can't give them the game time yet." 
This is partially correct for some players, but not all. Some go straight into the first team, others loaned straight to the Championship or League 1, skipping the leagues below which Warne refers to. However, in the Championship and below, players almost always have a few first team games before going out on loan.

Counter to everything Warne said above, Ben Wiles went into Rotherham's first team under Warne without ever going on loan. Perhaps a pressure free environment of relegation from the Championship being acceptable meant Warne was happy to throw him straight in.

People judge players differently, which is the likes of Elsnik and ABrown were released, and the club were close to releasing Festy and Cashin not long before they had a shot in the first team. You need to make sure you have the right person in that position to better judge young players. Judgement is one thing, but first team exposure is just as important. It tells potential loaning clubs if a player is ready for that level. I refer back to Bogle who we couldn't loan out to lower EFL clubs due to no exposure - he ended up getting 2 goals and 9 assists from RB that season! With only 90 minutes for our first team (against a Wolves U21 side) and only 63 minutes in the same competition last season, which club is going to know if Darren Robinson is ready for L1/2 football for the rest of the season?

[roboto]

I too am surprised at some of the players we've released over recent years that I thought looked a great prospect coming through the youth ranks.

However, having been around some London youth team setups with my two young lads at the moment and talking with lots of scouts and coaches, it isn't just about what they do in one or two opportunities that they're given with first team/cup fixtures/loans that determines whether they get offered the contracts. They have to be consistent with their training, show the right attitude and prove they have all the non-physical attributes that are needed to deal with the pressures of being a professional footballer.

The coaches see them a lot more than us fans do and will know exactly what their character is like. A lot of young players move around academies at younger ages as their attitude can see them fall out with coaches or not be able to keep up with the demands required. Over time players can develop these mental skills and it helps them later in their career to settle down, but for some these changes can be too little too late, and even the most skilful players can just fade away, never to be seen again.

Ravel Morrison as a United youth player is a famous example of this. Obviously, by the time he came here he was late in his career and had a reputation that followed him like a bad smell. If only he could've developed his attitude and applied himself at a younger age then his career trajectory would've been very different.

Cashin feels like it's the other way around. Not necessarily the most skilful player earlier in his development, but he's applied himself well, earned his pro contract and his first team opportunity and is now reaping the rewards of being the first name on the team sheet and a possible big move in the future for him.

[sage]

On 10/01/2024 at 09:20, TheHomunculusLives said:

Elsnik is now a full Slovenian international and has played Champions League football. I think he could definitely done a good job for Derby up to Championship level.

The trouble is, he wasn't Championship standard as his contract was ending. He had one good loan spell and then 2 so so ones.

As with Ravas and Jakobsen how long do you wait? Maybe them leaving and playing regularly is the way for them to have the career they have now.

 

[Foreveram]

1 hour ago, sage said:

The trouble is, he wasn't Championship standard as his contract was ending. He had one good loan spell and then 2 so so ones.

As with Ravas and Jakobsen how long do you wait? Maybe them leaving and playing regularly is the way for them to have the career they have now.

 

My mate is a season ticket holder at Stags, he said he was pretty average in the loan spell he had there in league two.