Mass Shooting at Texas Elementary School

[BucksRam]

That fact that tables such as this exist says it all: https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/reports/mass-shooting More than 200 incidents THIS YEAR ALONE and it's not even June. 

Things will only change if influential politicians kids or family are killed so they are personally affected - it's been going on for years now. Geldof wrote the song "I don't like Mondays" based on a similar incident in 1979, over 40 years ago and here we still are.    

[Bob The Badger]

44 minutes ago, Unlucky Alf said:

 the NRA lobby politicians and are supremely wealthy..

They used to be, but they're on their knees now and could even be liquidated if they lose a pending court case.

This is what I mean when I say you cannot just dismiss the US being a bunch of a gun-lovers.

There has been a concerted legal effort by thousands, supported by millions to bring the NRA down over the last decade and they're doing a pretty good job considering the power it held and still does to some extent.

I doubt it will make much difference though as I'm sure some equally dubious organisation will spring up in its place.

[MaltRam]

20 million guns sold in the USA last year. If we assume $1000 on average, that gives a $20bn annual industry, just domestically. That buys politicians so there is no way on earth the US will ever restrict gun ownership in any significant way.

As a result their kids will be murdered in batches most months.

Thick. As. Mince.

[Bob The Badger]

18 hours ago, Anag Ram said:

When do we ever here a story that says thankfully the shooter was foiled by a member of the public who was utilising their right to bear a firearm?

Never.

Sadly, privately owned guns are more likely to be used by murderers as a protest against society or by children who find the gun and experiment with disastrous consequences.

You do hear of them occasionally in the US.

But the media are less likely to report on them because the media in general are anti-gun.

Not that I'm suggesting they are common or that I think they should be highlighted. But the reality is, there would be no reason for the BBC (for example) to run a story about some dude whipping out a gun and shooting somebody who was carrying a rifle and trying to get into a school.

I must stress again, I'm vehemently anti-gun, but it's important to know what is actually going on and separate myth from fact.

[Ram-Alf]

10 minutes ago, Bob The Badger said:

They used to be, but they're on their knees now and could even be liquidated if they lose a pending court case.

This is what I mean when I say you cannot just dismiss the US being a bunch of a gun-lovers.

There has been a concerted legal effort by thousands, supported by millions to bring the NRA down over the last decade and they're doing a pretty good job considering the power it held and still does to some extent.

I doubt it will make much difference though as I'm sure some equally dubious organisation will spring up in its place.

That I was unaware of Bob, I saw the Texas senator was heckled yesterday by an opponent, But the USA seem to be there several times a year where mass murder is concerned, Not to mention the 1000s killed by guns/rifles Murder/Suicide every year.

I had a friend who was a concrete welder who had the opportunity to do some work in Oklahoma, He was put up with a fellow USA employee for the 2 weeks he was there, He went out with him hunting☹️got in his pick up and saw a small arsenal of weapons hanging against the rear window...it'll take generations and more before gun violence gets to a stage where the USA citizen believes they're getting somewhere.

[SSD]

Too busy worrying about outside terrorism when 45000 people in their own country die by guns every year.

Good ol American logic.

[Anon]

It's a good thing that the USA's land borders are so secure. Once guns are banned there's absolutely no way the cartels will be able to smuggle them into the country to sell.

[Leeds Ram]

12 hours ago, Stive Pesley said:

I've seen the pro-gun lobby people in the US calling people hypocrites for wanting to ban guns in the US, yet supporting the arming of civilians in Ukraine. Like these are somehow totally the same thing?! They don't even understand their own constitution do they?

 

Definitely not 

[1of4]

Listen to people who are pro-gun and they'll tell you, good guys with guns will stop the bad guys with guns.

Well its being reported that the so called good guys, the police, stood outside the school for over 40 minutes doing nothing, while the slaughter of children took place inside. So the theory put forward that more guns for the good guys will stop the bad guys looks a little flawed.

[Comrade 86]

The US has to approach this in steps rather than looking at the problem as a whole, wringing its hands and saying. 'it's too big, we can't fix it'. 

• More stringent background checks
• Minimum age to purchase a firearm raised from 18 to 21
• Mandatory 30 to 90 day 'cooling' period
• Imposition of more stringent gun-box laws both at home and when weapons are transported
• Armistice on long guns other than those expressly designed for hunting
• Ban on sale and ownership of any and all automatic and semi-automatic assault rifles
• Mandatory jail time for anyone found to be in contravention of the above
• Countrywide ban on open and / or concealed carry unless licensed to do so
• Increased stop and search powers for the police 
• Minimum 5 year term for anyone found to be carrying / concealing any sidearm save for if licensed to do so
• Minimum 10 year term for anyone discharging an unlicensed firearm
• Mandatory life sentence for anyone using an unlicensed firearm with intent to kill
• Mandatory life sentence for the procurement, sale and distribution of outlawed / unlicensed firearms

Sadly, very little of the above will happen due to the federal nature of the US, the acceptance and condoning of lobbying right across the political spectrum and the lack of genuine will amongst a sufficiently significant percentile of the populous for anything more than token measures. The US is quite literally 'in blood stepped so deep' that a return from the brink is currently impossible to envisage. In the meantime, 'thoughts and prayers' remain the order of the day. 

Meanwhile...

Edited May 27, 2022 by 86 Hair Islands

[1of4]

I find it strange that there's politicians in America wanting Roe v Wade repealed, claiming they are pro-life and that an abortion is murder. Are the same people who are refusing to sanction stricter controls on something that is causing the death of children at an higher rate than anything else. These politicians don't appear to be pro-life at all.

[Bob The Badger]

24 minutes ago, 1of4 said:

I find it strange that there's politicians in America wanting Roe v Wade repealed, claiming they are pro-life and that an abortion is murder. Are the same people who are refusing to sanction stricter controls on something that is causing the death of children at an higher rate than anything else. These politicians don't appear to be pro-life at all.

And the same ones who support the death penalty.

There were some cases a few years ago of abortion clinics being fire-bombed.

Hmmmm.

[Carl Sagan]

On 26/05/2022 at 08:00, Bob The Badger said:

Trump would never have done it. He was always massively pro gun/2nd amendment which is partly why Steve Scalise became so supportive.

Not only would he not have done it, he couldn't.

His base were turning on him at the end over his admission that he was vaccinated and he was booed at more than one event when he advised people to get tested.

His support would have utterly collapsed. 

And of course the Tories wouldn't say there are anti-immigration, just like almost no Senators say they love guns. 

Tories sell being anti-immigration as looking to protect the average British citizens' jobs, safety and way of life.

Even the clearly gun-obssessed nutjobs like Majorie Taylor-Green and Laureen Boebert don't say they just love guns. No, they dress it up as protecting the 2nd amendment from people who don't respect the founding fathers wisdom.

It's crazy complicated, which is why I think it's meaningless and unhelpful to just label a country of 350 million people as being this or doing that when it's so diverse.

BTW, the 1st amendment, as you probably know, is the right to free speech. And whereas it gets nothing like the coverage (for obvious reasons), it's fought almost as hard for as the right to bear arms which is why it took so long for social media platforms to start banning people who are clearly stirring up race hate.

They take their constitution very seriously.

But sadly, just about every element of it is open to debate and interpretation. Which was intentional by the authors, but not very helpful now.

You seem to have misunderstood. This would have been his landmark policy as he came into office, long before anything happened to do with Covid and vaccines. I was working in America for all the GOP debates and much of the election stuff and then would watch other things directly on American TV (rather than the UK versions) when back here. Trump totally dominated the GOP at that point and could have done what he wanted because he was bigger than the party. A democrat could never do it. Tough for any other Republican. That's why Trump feels like he was the one chance and I'm convinced he could have been shifted into being a unifying President (in some ways as Reagan was) because, deep down, Trump just wants to be liked/adored. But the Dems never gave him a chance and so the opportunity was lost.

[Comrade 86]

19 minutes ago, Carl Sagan said:

You seem to have misunderstood. This would have been his landmark policy as he came into office, long before anything happened to do with Covid and vaccines. I was working in America for all the GOP debates and much of the election stuff and then would watch other things directly on American TV (rather than the UK versions) when back here. Trump totally dominated the GOP at that point and could have done what he wanted because he was bigger than the party. A democrat could never do it. Tough for any other Republican. That's why Trump feels like he was the one chance and I'm convinced he could have been shifted into being a unifying President (in some ways as Reagan was) because, deep down, Trump just wants to be liked/adored. But the Dems never gave him a chance and so the opportunity was lost.

Is this a joke? 

[Stive Pesley]

In Texas, it is illegal to own more than six dildos, but you can own as many guns as you want  and carry them in public 

This is not a joke

[Bob The Badger]

1 hour ago, Carl Sagan said:

You seem to have misunderstood. This would have been his landmark policy as he came into office, long before anything happened to do with Covid and vaccines. I was working in America for all the GOP debates and much of the election stuff and then would watch other things directly on American TV (rather than the UK versions) when back here. Trump totally dominated the GOP at that point and could have done what he wanted because he was bigger than the party. A democrat could never do it. Tough for any other Republican. That's why Trump feels like he was the one chance and I'm convinced he could have been shifted into being a unifying President (in some ways as Reagan was) because, deep down, Trump just wants to be liked/adored. But the Dems never gave him a chance and so the opportunity was lost.

I think I got your gist, I just totally disagree.

I lived there for 14 years between the beginning of 2006 until the week before Trump lost to Biden in November 2020 I've followed US politics closely since the days of RR. 

Probably more so than the UK, even before I lived there.

Trump was a god to the far right but he was never bigger than the GOP, it just looked that way for a short period of time.

You think Mitch McConnell would have allowed tougher gun control? You have to be kidding me.

I literally cannot think of a single strong Trump ally who isn't massively in favour of the freedom to arm yourself to the teeth. 

Of course, he'd have had some Democratic support from swing states. But most would have said whatever he proposed wasn't enough and refuse to support him. That's just how it works over there, especially with Trump.

His support suffered with his change in stance over covid vaccinations because they didn't like his stance on covid vaccinations and not because because he lost. They were kicking off well before he lost.

Obviously we will never know, but if change is to happen I think it has to come from an inclusive leader not the most polarising one in living memory.

As for wanting to be loved.

I dunno about that, perhaps deep down, as we all do. But I never heard any qualified therapist say he was anything other than a raving narcissist and they tend not to worry too much about what others think.

[Bob The Badger]

2 hours ago, Stive Pesley said:

In Texas, it is illegal to own more than six dildos, but you can own as many guns as you want  and carry them in public 

This is not a joke

Is that why @TexasRam had to leave the state?

[Highgate]

The House managed to pass a bill recently that would remove a loophole from previous legislation and thereby stiffen background checks, making it at least a little more difficult for people to purchase guns quickly.

The Senate blocked this highly popular bill however, because of course they did. It's quite clear senators have been bought and paid for.  Money has now corrupted US politics to such a level that it can't really be considered a functioning representative democracy anymore. 

Going back to the 2nd Amendment itself, written in the 1790s, do fans of the NRA and other gun enthusiasts really believe that the people who first drafted that amendment had automatic assault weapons in mind?  Those were the days of muskets and flintlock pistols. The type of weapon currently available to those who want to practice their right 'to bear arms' is absolutely ridiculous. 

 

 

Edited May 27, 2022 by Highgate

[Gone]

1 hour ago, Bob The Badger said:

Is that why @TexasRam had to leave the state?

I cannot confirm or deny this rumour 

[1of4]

7 hours ago, Carl Sagan said:

You seem to have misunderstood. This would have been his landmark policy as he came into office, long before anything happened to do with Covid and vaccines. I was working in America for all the GOP debates and much of the election stuff and then would watch other things directly on American TV (rather than the UK versions) when back here. Trump totally dominated the GOP at that point and could have done what he wanted because he was bigger than the party. A democrat could never do it. Tough for any other Republican. That's why Trump feels like he was the one chance and I'm convinced he could have been shifted into being a unifying President (in some ways as Reagan was) because, deep down, Trump just wants to be liked/adored. But the Dems never gave him a chance and so the opportunity was lost.

What TV were you watching that made you think Trump could become a unifying President?  Could it have been Fox and Friends or maybe those more moderate middle of the road presenters Bill O'Reilly and Sean Hannity.