Finance thread 2022.

[Elwood P Dowd]

I wonder what it costs in electricity for a club to host a night match these days?

In the 1970s when we had power cuts many matches were brought forward to avoid the use of lights. 

[Rev]

39 minutes ago, Elwood P Dowd said:

I wonder what it costs in electricity for a club to host a night match these days?

In the 1970s when we had power cuts many matches were brought forward to avoid the use of lights. 

Mansfield are trialling a similar thing in an upcoming game. 

The cost saving isn't as much as you'd think though, probably not enough to cover lower ticket sales. 

[GboroRam]

10 hours ago, PistoldPete said:

I think you are confusing average rate of tax with marginal rate of tax. But yes the average rate of 8income tax and ni for someone on 100k is 33% for someone on 125k it’s 40%. The marginal rate of tax on that extra 25k is over 60%.

Previous poster said nobody should lose half their pay in tax. Just pointing out nobody is losing half their pay. 

[JoetheRam]

1 hour ago, Elwood P Dowd said:

I wonder what it costs in electricity for a club to host a night match these days?

In the 1970s when we had power cuts many matches were brought forward to avoid the use of lights. 

Probably not that much, assuming the ground has LED floodlights and not old fashioned halogen.

Lets have a go...

According to some Internet research the lights at the Etihad produce about 2000w each, so I imagine ours are similarly powerful given the grounds are similarly aged. From a look at various photos we seem to have about 200 floodlights.

So roughly 400,000 watts (400 kw/h).

Therefore all approx...

400 kwh x 20p per KW/H for businesses = £80 per hour.

Does 3 hours as a season average run time per game sound right? (5pm - 10pm roughly for a winter evening kick off, maybe a few less hours for your 3pm kick offs in winter?)

£80 x 3 hours = £240 per game x 23 = £5,520 per year.

Plus a few other occasions (under 21's, cup games, play-offs).

I reckon about £7.5k a season roughly but happy for someone to correct my maths and sparky assumptions.

That sounds too low now I think about it.

Edited October 5, 2022 by JoetheRam

[ariotofmyown]

17 hours ago, GeneralRam said:

Problem in the UK has always been salaries, people just don't earn enough unless you're in London.

The country needs to decide if it's a high tax high benefit economy like Europe or a low tax, low benefit country like the US. Problem is we're a bit of both and that results in low salaries and the problems we're seeing now. 

Interesting thoughts in that 2nd paragraph. Could also combine in that people here expect good and free public services, but don't expect to pay any tax for them. 

I did think of a different point of view on your first point though, especially for younger workers now.

I imagine that public sector workers (teachers, nurses etc) have a relitavely higher standard of living outside of London and the South East due to much lower housing costs. Likewise 2 young people doing similar jobs in the private sector.

And on a related topic, I had the pleasure today of walking down the High Street of the Buckinghamshire town of Bletchly. It was a really depressed and downtrodden place.  The streets down here are not all paved with gold!

[PistoldPete]

11 hours ago, GboroRam said:

Previous poster said nobody should lose half their pay in tax. Just pointing out nobody is losing half their pay. 

It depends whether he was talking about total salary or salary band. But even so, average tax rates are close to 48% for very high earners (45% plus 3.2% NI). Some may be affected by pension allowance taxes as well. Contractors within IR35 pay their deemed employers NI as well, another 15%. Plus everyone  pays Council tax , VAT, fuel and excise duty, some will pay stamp duty and probably other taxes as well. 

Even the Guardian article is saying the top 1% pay about 30% of all taxes. I think that is fair, but personally I don't think we should bite the hand that feeds us.     

[Stive Pesley]

6 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

Even the Guardian article is saying the top 1% pay about 30% of all taxes. I think that is fair, but personally I don't think we should bite the hand that feeds us

Isn't that last comment part of the problem? We're all somehow so deferential to rich people, like we owe them something? 

In actual fact - for the vast majority - they need us more than we need them. They need us to buy their services, and this idea that if we tax them too much they will leave is also a nonsense. If they leave, that gives someone else a gap in the market to fill

 

[1of4]

10 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

Interesting thoughts in that 2nd paragraph. Could also combine in that people here expect good and free public services, but don't expect to pay any tax for them. 

I did think of a different point of view on your first point though, especially for younger workers now.

I imagine that public sector workers (teachers, nurses etc) have a relitavely higher standard of living outside of London and the South East due to much lower housing costs. Likewise 2 young people doing similar jobs in the private sector.

And on a related topic, I had the pleasure today of walking down the High Street of the Buckinghamshire town of Bletchly. It was a really depressed and downtrodden place.  The streets down here are not all paved with gold!

The shops are probably doing fine down there. The people in Bletchley are good at keeping things they are doing a secret and hidden from outsiders.

[PistoldPete]

53 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

Isn't that last comment part of the problem? We're all somehow so deferential to rich people, like we owe them something? 

In actual fact - for the vast majority - they need us more than we need them. They need us to buy their services, and this idea that if we tax them too much they will leave is also a nonsense. If they leave, that gives someone else a gap in the market to fill

 

I think I've covered that in my previous posts. Taxing people at high marginal rates leads to a  reduction in earnings .. people going part time, not working overtime, or even retiring. Some people and businesses especially will relocate if it suits them. And there isn't a gap that can be easily filled, we have a tight labour market right now.  

Anyway enough of this.. any money saving tips? I do wonder about whether keeping a car on the road is really worth it.  

[angieram]

Just now, PistoldPete said:

I think I've covered that in my previous posts. Taxing people at high marginal rates leads to a  reduction in earnings .. people going part time, not working overtime, or even retiring. Some people and businesses especially will relocate if it suits them. And there isn't a gap that can be easily filled, we have a tight labour market right now.  

Anyway enough of this.. any money saving tips? I do wonder about whether keeping a car on the road is really worth it.  

8,000 miles per year is the break even point for owning a car. Anything less and it is cheaper to hire in.

Having said that, I weigh in the convenience, independence and safety factors and still own a car, despite only driving 4,000 miles last year.

[Stive Pesley]

19 minutes ago, angieram said:

8,000 miles per year is the break even point for owning a car. Anything less and it is cheaper to hire in.

Having said that, I weigh in the convenience, independence and safety factors and still own a car, despite only driving 4,000 miles last year.

Is that true? I've often wondered. We went from 2 cars down to 1 car in 2013, and that made a big difference financially (and actually didn't need a great deal of readjustment to family logistics)

Since then - I work from home and Mrs Pesley got a new job within walking distance, so we do about 4000 mile per year max now

Car is a 66 plate 1200cc - the guy at the garage was laughing about how the engine was so clean it looked like a new car

We own it outright and it's worth about £6k

Tax is £30
Service and MOT was just done and that was about £250
Insurance is about £300

Am I missing any other costs? I'm thinking it would cost more than £600 per year to hire a car when we need one (plus the hassle). Even taxis everywhere would be more I'm sure

 

 

 

[PistoldPete]

1 hour ago, angieram said:

8,000 miles per year is the break even point for owning a car. Anything less and it is cheaper to hire in.

Having said that, I weigh in the convenience, independence and safety factors and still own a car, despite only driving 4,000 miles last year.

Does that take into account the stress of driving, the stress of breakdowns etc? I think breakdowns and repairs are a bigger thing now because it can take weeks for a garage to fix anything. So you might only have a car for 90% of the time anyway if you are waiting for repairs  to the car. Plus I still have legs I can walk if I need to.   

[PistoldPete]

52 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

Is that true? I've often wondered. We went from 2 cars down to 1 car in 2013, and that made a big difference financially (and actually didn't need a great deal of readjustment to family logistics)

Since then - I work from home and Mrs Pesley got a new job within walking distance, so we do about 4000 mile per year max now

Car is a 66 plate 1200cc - the guy at the garage was laughing about how the engine was so clean it looked like a new car

We own it outright and it's worth about £6k

Tax is £30
Service and MOT was just done and that was about £250
Insurance is about £300

Am I missing any other costs? I'm thinking it would cost more than £600 per year to hire a car when we need one (plus the hassle). Even taxis everywhere would be more I'm sure

 

 

 

Err.. depreciation? If you are keeping the car for another what five years and then replacing it with another car of similar value, if it's straight line depreciation (there is no other kind according to Rick Parry), that's £1,200 per year on top.

Fuel? (if you are comparing with a taxi or public transport).

Repairs? Breakdown insurance ?  

Edited October 6, 2022 by PistoldPete

[Tamworthram]

14 hours ago, Rev said:

Mansfield are trialling a similar thing in an upcoming game. 

The cost saving isn't as much as you'd think though, probably not enough to cover lower ticket sales. 

That’s exactly what the EFL have said (although they said other income streams rather than just ticket sales).

It seems a little patronising to me for the EFL to offer such advice. Surely every club is capable of doing the maths themselves and estimating potential lost ticket sales as accurately as the EFL in order to decide whether they think it is financially beneficial.

[Stive Pesley]

7 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

That’s exactly what the EFL have said (although they said other income streams rather than just ticket sales).

It seems a little patronising to me for the EFL to offer such advice. Surely every club is capable of doing the maths themselves and estimating potential lost ticket sales as accurately as the EFL in order to decide whether they think it is financially beneficial.

I heard that in the Bundesliga, FC Colditz are ditching floodlights and trialling a single bright spotlight following the ball throughout the game

[GboroRam]

20 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

Err.. depreciation? Fuel? (if you are comparing with a taxi or public transport). Repairs? Breakdown insurance ?  

I would calculate your costs like this (well, it's what I do to work out that my work's offer of 30p per mile is total dog toffee and I refuse to drive my car for work).

Typical car, let's say it costs £10k and you get 100k miles before it dies. That means you spend 10p a mile just on depreciation of the car. Obviously this will vary, if you buy expensive cars or if you buy old bangers - but my numbers aren't a million miles from a realistic value and it makes the maths easier.

Tyres cost about £100+ each, you use 4, and let's say you can get 20k miles on a tyre.  So another 2p per mile or more.

Fuel, I can get about 50 mile per gallon. I reckon at current prices you're looking at best part of 10p per mile.

A service is about £200, and let's say you're a good car owner and do it every 10,000 miles. That's another 2p per mile.

Repairs, hard one to factor in. You probably will spend a hundred quid a year on bits and bobs - even if it's just washer bottle fluid, wiper blades etc. Another 1p per mile if you go 10k miles a year.

MOT at about £30 a year, and you go let's say 10k miles, you pay a third of a penny per mile. Road tax is between £30 and £120 for most people, so you're anywhere from a third of a penny to over a penny a mile.

Already I'm at 25-26p per mile to drive your car. We've not insured you, we've not washed it, hoovered it or bought any fluffy dice to go on the rear view mirror. We've not considered anything other than direct cost of the car on your pocket. For 10k miles a year you're spending £2500 just on the car. And that pays for a lot of taxis, if that's an option where you are.

 

[PistoldPete]

1 hour ago, GboroRam said:

I would calculate your costs like this (well, it's what I do to work out that my work's offer of 30p per mile is total dog toffee and I refuse to drive my car for work).

Typical car, let's say it costs £10k and you get 100k miles before it dies. That means you spend 10p a mile just on depreciation of the car. Obviously this will vary, if you buy expensive cars or if you buy old bangers - but my numbers aren't a million miles from a realistic value and it makes the maths easier.

Tyres cost about £100+ each, you use 4, and let's say you can get 20k miles on a tyre.  So another 2p per mile or more.

Fuel, I can get about 50 mile per gallon. I reckon at current prices you're looking at best part of 10p per mile.

A service is about £200, and let's say you're a good car owner and do it every 10,000 miles. That's another 2p per mile.

Repairs, hard one to factor in. You probably will spend a hundred quid a year on bits and bobs - even if it's just washer bottle fluid, wiper blades etc. Another 1p per mile if you go 10k miles a year.

MOT at about £30 a year, and you go let's say 10k miles, you pay a third of a penny per mile. Road tax is between £30 and £120 for most people, so you're anywhere from a third of a penny to over a penny a mile.

Already I'm at 25-26p per mile to drive your car. We've not insured you, we've not washed it, hoovered it or bought any fluffy dice to go on the rear view mirror. We've not considered anything other than direct cost of the car on your pocket. For 10k miles a year you're spending £2500 just on the car. And that pays for a lot of taxis, if that's an option where you are.

 

I think you have underestimated that Gboro. At 50 miles per gallon you are talking about 15p per mile on current prices. I worked out  at 4k pa  using similar assumptions to you on depreciation, mpg and mileage... but adding extras like insurance , parking etc. That is a lot of taxis indeed.  

[GboroRam]

40 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

I think you have underestimated that Gboro. At 50 miles per gallon you are talking about 15p per mile on current prices. I worked out  at 4k pa  using similar assumptions to you on depreciation, mpg and mileage... but adding extras like insurance , parking etc. That is a lot of taxis indeed.  

You are undoubtedly right. I worked it out some time ago at 7.5p per mile, and prices have gone up a lot since then. I said 10 as it's obviously more expensive - but I hadn't really thought just how much it's risen in price.

[Stive Pesley]

5 hours ago, GboroRam said:

I would calculate your costs like this (well, it's what I do to work out that my work's offer of 30p per mile is total dog toffee and I refuse to drive my car for work).

Typical car, let's say it costs £10k and you get 100k miles before it dies. That means you spend 10p a mile just on depreciation of the car. Obviously this will vary, if you buy expensive cars or if you buy old bangers - but my numbers aren't a million miles from a realistic value and it makes the maths easier.

Tyres cost about £100+ each, you use 4, and let's say you can get 20k miles on a tyre.  So another 2p per mile or more.

Fuel, I can get about 50 mile per gallon. I reckon at current prices you're looking at best part of 10p per mile.

A service is about £200, and let's say you're a good car owner and do it every 10,000 miles. That's another 2p per mile.

Repairs, hard one to factor in. You probably will spend a hundred quid a year on bits and bobs - even if it's just washer bottle fluid, wiper blades etc. Another 1p per mile if you go 10k miles a year.

MOT at about £30 a year, and you go let's say 10k miles, you pay a third of a penny per mile. Road tax is between £30 and £120 for most people, so you're anywhere from a third of a penny to over a penny a mile.

Already I'm at 25-26p per mile to drive your car. We've not insured you, we've not washed it, hoovered it or bought any fluffy dice to go on the rear view mirror. We've not considered anything other than direct cost of the car on your pocket. For 10k miles a year you're spending £2500 just on the car. And that pays for a lot of taxis, if that's an option where you are.

 

The total cost of ownership is a bit nuts when you think of it like that. Hopefully if we continue to only use it lightly, it may well make it to the 2030 electric car deadline. At which point I guess we'll have a better idea as to whether electric cars are the low-cost low-emission green future, or if they are even more unaffordable - then make a decision from there. 

[CWC1983]

20 hours ago, Rev said:

Mansfield are trialling a similar thing in an upcoming game. 

The cost saving isn't as much as you'd think though, probably not enough to cover lower ticket sales. 

Inverness chairman was on radio last Saturday and said the cost was 4 times as much compared to last year. 

Logistically it doesn't work for them to bring games forward to say midday, and he is seeing a lot less away fans coming through the gate due to unrealiable train services and cost of fuel.