A refereeing conspiracy?

[Jimbo Ram]

5 minutes ago, Curtains said:

What very fair to Blackburn’s bully tactics 

Come on, we can't keep blaming the refs every time we lose, he was fine last night.......

[Curtains]

1 hour ago, Jimbo Ram said:

Come on, we can't keep blaming the refs every time we lose, he was fine last night.......

He wasn’t. 

[RadioactiveWaste]

On Netflix there's a series called "Bad Sport" that has an episode on the juventus referee scandal.

Surely nothing so diabolical could happen in the EFL. The FA, EFL and conspirators wouldn't be competent enough to enact it and trustworthy enough to keep it under wraps.

[Tyler Durden]

Nice to see the balanced views on this thread that the referee in charge of our games will only be a good one if he gives us 5 penalties and sends off half of the opposition. 

Some of the nit picking comments on here about the ref last are quite ridiculous 

[DavesaRam]

Rather than saying he was fair, it would be better to say “he was less unfair”.

[Ram-Alf]

12 hours ago, Tyler Durden said:

Nice to see the balanced views on this thread that the referee in charge of our games will only be a good one if he gives us 5 penalties and sends off half of the opposition. 

Some of the nit picking comments on here about the ref last are quite ridiculous 

Sorry for the nit picking, If he sends off half the opposition then the match will be abandoned ?

[VulcanRam]

On 13/03/2022 at 13:31, Unlucky Alf said:

Not deliberate, But in todays game it goes down as "an unnatural position" if the ball didn't hit his hand the goal would not have come about...Poor Refereeing, Also should have sent QPR player off for raising his hands and putting them on the Luton players face books him instead, The authoritys make the rules...the officials interpret how they see fit ?‍♂️

Just reading through this thread for the first time and thought I'd offer a perspective from someone who referees most weekends at a senior county level. I'm not picking on you @Unlucky Alf but your post above and the conversation around it with @AndyinLiverpoolraises a couple of points. 

Firstly, you're both right in a way on this. Most handballs are not handballs because they are not deliberate and do not lead directly to a shooting opportunity. However, a handball that is not deliberate can be pulled up if the referee's personal interpretation is that the player's body was made unnaturally bigger unless it was part of his overall movement at that moment in time (ie if he was swinging round/changing direction it is natural to assume his arms might be out rather than by his side. 

The other part to it is if the hands are deemed to be in a natural position and it was not deliberate, but the player clearly controlled the ball using his hand or arm and thus has gained an advantage by doing so. By the laws of the game this is not handball, by the spirit of the game, which we must also take into consideration, it is or it might be. The Man City example is a good one for this dilemma - it can be argued that the player was shifting direction so his arm was out for balance therefore not in an unnatural position. However, in the spirit of the game he has used his arm to control the ball so it's handball.

But you can see how difficult some of these decisions are for referees (outside the Prem where there is no VAR), who have to make them in a split second and at a 100 miles per hour taking a lot of things into consideration. And that's if they get a clear sight of it. And they've got 10 players in their ear shouting different things.

The last bit @Unlucky Alf is about the QPR player. Look at the still when it happens. The ref has just blown for HT and has his eyes down on his notebook, which is perfectly reasonable. The incident takes place almost behind him. He cannot be expected to have seen it so he cannot send the player off. That's not bad refereeing or poor interpretation. Bad refereeing would have been to have guessed or assumed he'd pushed him and sent him off as a result of that guess. Referees are only human and in the EFL, with VAR, have only one pair of eyes, and can only judge on what they see.

Last one, the Morrison foul was a clear foul and a penalty. But if the ref was following the ball and in that split second didn't get a proper or clear view of it he can't give it. I'm not defending him here, just offering a different perspective.

It's easy to referee by TV with a wide angle where you can see lots of things at the same time. At ground level when you can't and there's lots going on all the time, believe me, it's a hard job. 

[Ram-Alf]

33 minutes ago, VulcanRam said:

Just reading through this thread for the first time and thought I'd offer a perspective from someone who referees most weekends at a senior county level. I'm not picking on you @Unlucky Alf but your post above and the conversation around it with @AndyinLiverpoolraises a couple of points. 

Firstly, you're both right in a way on this. Most handballs are not handballs because they are not deliberate and do not lead directly to a shooting opportunity. However, a handball that is not deliberate can be pulled up if the referee's personal interpretation is that the player's body was made unnaturally bigger unless it was part of his overall movement at that moment in time (ie if he was swinging round/changing direction it is natural to assume his arms might be out rather than by his side. 

The other part to it is if the hands are deemed to be in a natural position and it was not deliberate, but the player clearly controlled the ball using his hand or arm and thus has gained an advantage by doing so. By the laws of the game this is not handball, by the spirit of the game, which we must also take into consideration, it is or it might be. The Man City example is a good one for this dilemma - it can be argued that the player was shifting direction so his arm was out for balance therefore not in an unnatural position. However, in the spirit of the game he has used his arm to control the ball so it's handball.

But you can see how difficult some of these decisions are for referees (outside the Prem where there is no VAR), who have to make them in a split second and at a 100 miles per hour taking a lot of things into consideration. And that's if they get a clear sight of it. And they've got 10 players in their ear shouting different things.

The last bit @Unlucky Alf is about the QPR player. Look at the still when it happens. The ref has just blown for HT and has his eyes down on his notebook, which is perfectly reasonable. The incident takes place almost behind him. He cannot be expected to have seen it so he cannot send the player off. That's not bad refereeing or poor interpretation. Bad refereeing would have been to have guessed or assumed he'd pushed him and sent him off as a result of that guess. Referees are only human and in the EFL, with VAR, have only one pair of eyes, and can only judge on what they see.

Last one, the Morrison foul was a clear foul and a penalty. But if the ref was following the ball and in that split second didn't get a proper or clear view of it he can't give it. I'm not defending him here, just offering a different perspective.

It's easy to referee by TV with a wide angle where you can see lots of things at the same time. At ground level when you can't and there's lots going on all the time, believe me, it's a hard job. 

I've not an issue with your post and all very well put...But!

It's in the moment, Refs make a split decision, What is going through a refs mind at that precise moment...we do not know, I too have refereed, Not at the standard where you're officiating but non the less refereeing, I've refereed cup finals, It doesn't make me any better an official than others, It's all down to how teams mark you at the end of games, So good marks gets you higher up the food chain.

One final point The head of the PGMOL Mike Riley will state...not in the forensic explanation you have given, Also FIFA and UEFA the arms extended will be given as making the body bigger(unatural position)

Rules are made by suits who wouldn't have a clue on how to trap a ball.

Enjoy your day ?

[May Contain Nuts]

It's not just 1 pair of eyes though, is it? The lines.... um, referees assistants, and the 4th official are all allowed to tell him if he's missed something?

Edited March 17, 2022 by Coconut's Beard

[VulcanRam]

41 minutes ago, Unlucky Alf said:

I've not an issue with your post and all very well put...But!

It's in the moment, Refs make a split decision, What is going through a refs mind at that precise moment...we do not know, I too have refereed, Not at the standard where you're officiating but non the less refereeing, I've refereed cup finals, It doesn't make me any better an official than others, It's all down to how teams mark you at the end of games, So good marks gets you higher up the food chain.

One final point The head of the PGMOL Mike Riley will state...not in the forensic explanation you have given, Also FIFA and UEFA the arms extended will be given as making the body bigger(unatural position)

Rules are made by suits who wouldn't have a clue on how to trap a ball.

Enjoy your day ?

Except that's only half the rule. The rest of it reads:

A player is considered to have made their body unnaturally bigger when the position of their hand/arm is not a consequence of, or justifiable by, the player’s body movement for that specific situation. By having their hand/arm in such a position, the player takes a risk of their hand/arm being hit by the ball and being penalised.

Therefore it is up to the referee to decide if a player's movement and position while moving impacts on where his arms/hands are (ie if you are jumping it is natural to have your arms out). 

 

[VulcanRam]

4 minutes ago, Coconut's Beard said:

It's not just 1 pair of eyes though, is it? The lines.... um, referees assistants, and the 4th official are all allowed to tell him if he's missed something?

Yes, but depending on where the play is, assistants can be looking from a long way away and are told only to contradict the ref/make a decision if they are nearer to the incident than the referee, so essentially on their side and within 10 yards of the touchline. That's why you'll only see linos flagging for a foul when it's right in front of them. And no, 4th officials don't get involved in the decision making process such as a handball.

[May Contain Nuts]

17 minutes ago, VulcanRam said:

Yes, but depending on where the play is, assistants can be looking from a long way away and are told only to contradict the ref/make a decision if they are nearer to the incident than the referee, so essentially on their side and within 10 yards of the touchline. That's why you'll only see linos flagging for a foul when it's right in front of them. And no, 4th officials don't get involved in the decision making process such as a handball.

But an incident like the penalty Morrison should have had, there's not really any distance away from which it isn't clearly a penalty if someone's seen it happen. Seems silly to put an actual distance on it, if it stops someone speaking up about something obvious.

If someone threw a punch in the penalty area and the only person on the refereeing team who saw it was the assistant stood on the halfway line, he wouldn't say anything?

Of course when mentioning the 4th official I meant to draw the refs attention to incidents in the technical area / dugouts (of course!). The ref may well see something happening there if he's hanging around that area, but who's responsibility is it to keep track of things there?

Edited March 17, 2022 by Coconut's Beard

[Alty_Ram]

Any chance that we could have this renamed 'Refereeing' or something so we don't appear completely paranoid. It's the sort of things that other fans pick up on to describe us as deluded.

Do I think we have been seriously hard done by recently ? Yes I do. We are certainly not getting the rub of the green at the moment with decisions, but I don't believe for one minute that it is part of grand evil plot by anybody. We have been denied clear penalties for sure but we have thrown away so many points this season that had nothing to do with referees - Blackburn was a prime example, as was the farce at Peterborough in injury time. Happy to discuss the ins and outs of refs and rules but perhaps we should steer clear of tin foil hat syndrome. Just my opinion...

[Ram-Alf]

21 minutes ago, VulcanRam said:

Except that's only half the rule. The rest of it reads:

A player is considered to have made their body unnaturally bigger when the position of their hand/arm is not a consequence of, or justifiable by, the player’s body movement for that specific situation. By having their hand/arm in such a position, the player takes a risk of their hand/arm being hit by the ball and being penalised.

Therefore it is up to the referee to decide if a player's movement and position while moving impacts on where his arms/hands are (ie if you are jumping it is natural to have your arms out). 

 

Hang on people this could be a bumpy ride.

This was highlighted by AndyinLiverpool, Unless an official has the rulebook to hand, Stops the game, Goes to the said page and reads the rule where you have posted then games will go on and on and on and on and so fourth.

VAR is there to help officials, VAR is not available in the Championship, Next season in some form it will be, Then the fun starts.

[IslandExile]

2 hours ago, VulcanRam said:

However, a handball that is not deliberate can be pulled up if the referee's personal interpretation is that the player's body was made unnaturally bigger unless it was part of his overall movement at that moment in time

Are 'star jumps' in front of an opponent with the ball allowed?

[VulcanRam]

2 hours ago, Coconut's Beard said:

But an incident like the penalty Morrison should have had, there's not really any distance away from which it isn't clearly a penalty if someone's seen it happen. Seems silly to put an actual distance on it, if it stops someone speaking up about something obvious.

If someone threw a punch in the penalty area and the only person on the refereeing team who saw it was the assistant stood on the halfway line, he wouldn't say anything?

Of course when mentioning the 4th official I meant to draw the refs attention to incidents in the technical area / dugouts (of course!). The ref may well see something happening there if he's hanging around that area, but who's responsibility is it to keep track of things there?

At that moment if the lino saw a clear penalty he could signal it to the referee. He didn't which means he either felt the referee was closer and had a better view (which is true) so left the decision to him, didn't see it because he was obscured by other players in front of him, or did see it and didn't think it was a foul and that Morrison was playing for a penalty. I imagine it was the first as the ref was very close and had a much better view - no linesman is going to overrule him there and ultimately it all rests on him. If you're looking at something close up and I'm 20 yards away and argue that what you're looking at is wrong, you're only going to say one thing back to me!

Linos take left back so his angle means he might not be able to see as there will be players in the way plus he'll be looking at the movement of the ball plus at the same time checking the second to last defender to make sure he's in line for any offside call.Also, the moment of impact was potentially side on to his position so his view of the impact might be being blocked by the challenging player.  On the other side the lino is either at the halfway line or in line with the second to last defender in their half so at pitch level won't get a good view as to whether there's contact or Morrison is diving.

To take the point in bold, yes of course, if at any stage a linesman sees something he can draw the ref's attention to it, but it's a hell of a lot easier to see someone punching someone than it is judging whether a tackle is a foul when you're looking from distance, especially in the penalty area where players go to ground so easily. Obviously the linesman can draw the ref's attention to something - elsewhere in this thread someone mentioned the hands-to-face incident between the QPR and Luton player. The ref clearly doesn't see it, but if the linesman does he can tell the ref who can then send him off. But obviously the linesmen didn't see it clearly either. 

The 4th officials role is to keep that part of the pitch in order, draw attention to the ref for disorder or infringements from the technical areas (players,officials, third parties) or maybe the stands behind him if something is thrown for example, sort out substitutions and be ready if a replacement is required on the officials team. He won't rule on a foul unless something happens right in front of him and the ref asks for his view. But certainly not a penalty where he's viewing from distance.

By the way I'm not defending the officials in the Morrison incident - it was a foul and they got it wrong. Equally, I thought it might help to just bring in some of the considerations the officials have. 

[VulcanRam]

2 hours ago, Unlucky Alf said:

Hang on people this could be a bumpy ride.

This was highlighted by AndyinLiverpool, Unless an official has the rulebook to hand, Stops the game, Goes to the said page and reads the rule where you have posted then games will go on and on and on and on and so fourth.

VAR is there to help officials, VAR is not available in the Championship, Next season in some form it will be, Then the fun starts.

Refs know the rules, players and coaches should know the rules, tv commentators rarely do but that's their problem. The rules on handball by the way get changed in some way most seasons of late, they did this season on the rule of deliberate and accidental in the run up to a shot/goal, so I expect it to be different again for 22/23. 

[Ram-Alf]

53 minutes ago, VulcanRam said:

Refs know the rules, players and coaches should know the rules, tv commentators rarely do but that's their problem. The rules on handball by the way get changed in some way most seasons of late, they did this season on the rule of deliberate and accidental in the run up to a shot/goal, so I expect it to be different again for 22/23. 

That's a bold statement?, Referees take a course at the end they take an exam, Depending on their result depends whether they pass, If close to a cut off point lets say 75% they'll be given another opportunity to pass.

As their carrears progress they'll be more courses and maybe more exams.

Going back to "Refs know the rules" and your statement that...the Morrison foul was a clear foul and a penalty. Maybe the Ref of the day didn't know the rules?

And yes you did stick a little caveat in there defending the official with... But if the ref was following the ball and in that split second didn't get a proper or clear view

There's rules that are interprited to suit, The crowd, The TV audience, The assesor in the stand, The agressive players, The coaches on the sideline, Is there an official out there that hasn't succumbed to the above? I doubt it ?

[VulcanRam]

56 minutes ago, Unlucky Alf said:

That's a bold statement?, Referees take a course at the end they take an exam, Depending on their result depends whether they pass, If close to a cut off point lets say 75% they'll be given another opportunity to pass.

As their carrears progress they'll be more courses and maybe more exams.

Going back to "Refs know the rules" and your statement that...the Morrison foul was a clear foul and a penalty. Maybe the Ref of the day didn't know the rules?

And yes you did stick a little caveat in there defending the official with... But if the ref was following the ball and in that split second didn't get a proper or clear view

There's rules that are interprited to suit, The crowd, The TV audience, The assesor in the stand, The agressive players, The coaches on the sideline, Is there an official out there that hasn't succumbed to the above? I doubt it ?

Tbh I've completely lost track of what point you're trying to make through all of this. Of course the referees know the rules, the amount of work they have to do away from the pitch at this level is huge. I've had to do plenty of laws of the game exams and I ref at a very low level.

In the Morrison situation, he just got it wrong, and there's a few reasons why that might have been. Only he and his team on the day know for sure. But we've probably exhausted all this now and I'm sure everyone is bored, so let's call it quits.

 

[Day]

There is no referee conspiracy.

We're feeling hard done by and that is adding weight to a conspiracy.

Truth is, the standard of officiating is pretty poo and all clubs are suffering.

The answer is VAR, but then most are against it and it's not completely fool proof. 

Unless we can train computer software to be fool proof in making decisions, we will always have those questionable decisions.

Questionable decisions which are part of football, they form the basis of conversations from Mon-Fri.

I love what Rooney has done, but he was wrong to call out the referees the way he has. 

I like to think of it as frustration and trying to defend the team, but I don't see it helping us in anyway, if anything the referee union will take issue with his comments and be more reluctant to award us anything.