A refereeing conspiracy?

[Ram-Alf]

3 minutes ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

how so?

"An arm extended away from the body makes that body bigger, in an unnatural position," explains Mike Riley, Managing Director of Professional Game Match Officials Limited (PGMOL), the referees' body.

 

What is an unnatural position handball?

-The ball touches the arm or hand extended in an unnatural position. An arm that is extended laterally or vertically can make the body unnaturally bigger, covering more space than necessary. Therefore, a handball in an “unnatural position” can be called, even if it is not done so deliberately.

Edited March 13, 2022 by Unlucky Alf

[Jimbo Ram]

12 minutes ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

Ok. My point is that if the referee doesn't think it was deliberate, he's not going to give it.

Since you have not answered the question both times I have asked it, it would suggest you at least have some doubt about whether it was deliberate. Since the player did not score with that touch and since the player's arm was in that position through his own 'body movements for that situation', you should not penalise it.

Feel free to not change you mind but you can read the laws of the game here:

https://www.thefa.com/football-rules-governance/lawsandrules/laws/football-11-11/law-12---fouls-and-misconduct

No, you haven't read my post correctly. My point is if you look at 10 handball incidents, 75% are debateable as to whether they were deliberate or not. How do you know? Take the Man City one v Everton where there has been all the fuss about and Lampard got an apology for the error. Did he deliberately handle the ball in that case? In this instance there is no doubt that the ball hit his hand and those like that are given 95% of the time, the fact it led to a goal will be doubly upsetting for QPR....

[AndyinLiverpool]

5 minutes ago, Unlucky Alf said:

"An arm extended away from the body makes that body bigger, in an unnatural position," explains Mike Riley, Managing Director of Professional Game Match Officials Limited (PGMOL), the referees' body.

 

What is an unnatural position handball?

-The ball touches the arm or hand extended in an unnatural position. An arm that is extended laterally or vertically can make the body unnaturally bigger, covering more space than necessary. Therefore, a handball in an “unnatural position” can be called, even if it is not done so deliberately.

An arm away from the body does not necessarily make it an unnatural position, as the wording of the law states.

'A player is considered to have made their body unnaturally bigger when the position of their hand/arm is not a consequence of, or justifiable by, the player’s body movement for that specific situation' (Law 12)

What the ref has to decide is why the arm is in that position. Is it as a consequence of his natural movements (in my opinion, yes) or was it there to make contact with the ball? It is quite natural to have an arm in that position when moving in the way he did.

As an aside, I am not sure, apart from becoming tumescent, how anyone might make their body bigger just by using their own body parts.

[Ram-Alf]

11 minutes ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

An arm away from the body does not necessarily make it an unnatural position, as the wording of the law states.

'A player is considered to have made their body unnaturally bigger when the position of their hand/arm is not a consequence of, or justifiable by, the player’s body movement for that specific situation' (Law 12)

What the ref has to decide is why the arm is in that position. Is it as a consequence of his natural movements (in my opinion, yes) or was it there to make contact with the ball? It is quite natural to have an arm in that position when moving in the way he did.

As an aside, I am not sure, apart from becoming tumescent, how anyone might make their body bigger just by using their own body parts.

Handball Situations – when is handball given

Intentional/deliberate handballs are always punishable. The following handball circumstances, even if deemed unintentional, are punishable by free-kick or penalty.

The ball goes into the goal after touching an attacking player’s hand/arm

A player gains control/possession of the ball after it has touched their hand/arm and then scores, creates a goal-scoring opportunity or gains a significant advantage

The ball touches a player’s hand/arm that has made their body appear unnaturally bigger. For example, a player extending their arm(s) widely

The ball touches a player’s hand/arm when it is above their shoulder (unless the player has deliberately played the ball which then touches their hard/arm)

[AndyinLiverpool]

17 minutes ago, Unlucky Alf said:

Handball Situations – when is handball given

Intentional/deliberate handballs are always punishable. The following handball circumstances, even if deemed unintentional, are punishable by free-kick or penalty.

The ball goes into the goal after touching an attacking player’s hand/arm

A player gains control/possession of the ball after it has touched their hand/arm and then scores, creates a goal-scoring opportunity or gains a significant advantage

The ball touches a player’s hand/arm that has made their body appear unnaturally bigger. For example, a player extending their arm(s) widely

The ball touches a player’s hand/arm when it is above their shoulder (unless the player has deliberately played the ball which then touches their hard/arm)

That is not the wording of the law for 21-22 season. It was changed and most of the stuff about teammate's arms, goalscoring opportunities, arms above shoulder height etc was removed.

 

Law 12 now has only this to say about handball:

HANDLING THE BALL

For the purposes of determining handball offences, the upper boundary of the arm is in line with the bottom of the armpit. Not every touch of a player’s hand/arm with the ball is an offence.

It is an offence if a player: 

deliberately touches the ball with their hand/arm, for example moving the hand/arm towards the ball

touches the ball with their hand/arm when it has made their body unnaturally bigger. A player is considered to have made their body unnaturally bigger when the position of their hand/arm is not a consequence of, or justifiable by, the player’s body movement for that specific situation. By having their hand/arm in such a position, the player takes a risk of their hand/arm being hit by the ball and being penalised

scores in the opponents' goal:

directly from their hand/arm, even if accidental, including by the goalkeeper

immediately after the ball has touched their hand/arm, even if accidental

[Ram-Alf]

15 minutes ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

That is not the wording of the law for 21-22 season. It was changed and most of the stuff about teammate's arms, goalscoring opportunities, arms above shoulder height etc was removed.

 

Law 12 now has only this to say about handball:

HANDLING THE BALL

For the purposes of determining handball offences, the upper boundary of the arm is in line with the bottom of the armpit. Not every touch of a player’s hand/arm with the ball is an offence.

It is an offence if a player: 

deliberately touches the ball with their hand/arm, for example moving the hand/arm towards the ball

touches the ball with their hand/arm when it has made their body unnaturally bigger. A player is considered to have made their body unnaturally bigger when the position of their hand/arm is not a consequence of, or justifiable by, the player’s body movement for that specific situation. By having their hand/arm in such a position, the player takes a risk of their hand/arm being hit by the ball and being penalised

scores in the opponents' goal:

directly from their hand/arm, even if accidental, including by the goalkeeper

immediately after the ball has touched their hand/arm, even if accidental

Told Ya?

[IslandExile]

Havertz has just scored for Chelski when earlier he should have been sent off.

Newcastle denied a stonewall penalty - despite VAR.

Referees are incompetent (and often favour the home/big side). VAR is useless.

Edited March 13, 2022 by IslandExile

[Jimbo Ram]

24 minutes ago, IslandExile said:

Havertz has just scored for Chelski when earlier he should have been sent off.

Newcastle denied a stonewall penalty - despite VAR.

Referees are incompetent (and often favour the home/big side). VAR is useless.

I think despite the criticism, VAR gets it right 95% of the time. Agree in this instance it looked like a penalty ?

[Woodley Ram]

There isn’t a conspiracy, just a number of mistakes that have been costly. Far too many, but this is a general thing this year not just Derby 

[hintonsboots]

1 minute ago, Woodley Ram said:

There isn’t a conspiracy, just a number of mistakes that have been costly. Far too many, but this is a general thing this year not just Derby 

The errors are magnified due to the predicament we are in. If we were safely mid table with no fear of relegation or reaching the play offs, they wouldn’t rankle as much. Even so, a blatant penalty has to be seen by a professional referee, whatever the game and whoever the team.

[Dcfcsr92]

21 hours ago, Tyler Durden said:

 

The EFL don't appoint matchday referees though do they

They do appoint the referees because because it comes through the fa and the football league give them the games to official, they appoint then to official the games

[alram]

45 minutes ago, Woodley Ram said:

There isn’t a conspiracy, just a number of mistakes that have been costly. Far too many, but this is a general thing this year not just Derby 

i have been watching football for 40+ years and i have never seen it so bad as the current crop of referees yet they have the best technology avalible. the whole system needs reform 

[DavesaRam]

1) I gave watched the highlights of the Barnsley match. It wasn’t a soft penalty - it wasn’t a penalty at all. The Barnsley player, tussling with the defender, suddenly throws both his feet forwards and falls to the ground. There was no contact, especially with the feet, at all, so the Barnsley player should have been yellow carded for simulation and a free-kick given the other way.

[DavesaRam]

2 hours ago, alram said:

i have been watching football for 40+ years and i have never seen it so bad as the current crop of referees yet they have the best technology avalible. the whole system needs reform 

Refereeing is a very difficult job, especially with players and their managers trying to get one over them all the time. The refs are human and therefore bound to make mistakes, and the occasional gaffe is only to be expected. But when it is 2,3 or even 4 major decisions in a match, and this happens match after match after match, and over a period of nearly 2 years, then you have to start thinking that there there is something more to it than mere human error.

[Tyler Durden]

2 hours ago, alram said:

i have been watching football for 40+ years and i have never seen it so bad as the current crop of referees yet they have the best technology avalible. the whole system needs reform 

It's pretty dire all over and not just concentrated in the EFL. Was watching the Chelsea Newcastle game today and how the ref didn't see the shirt getting pulled off the back of the Newcastle player is beyond me. Not once but twice. Clear penalty. 

[europia]

2 hours ago, DavesaRam said:

Refereeing is a very difficult job, especially with players and their managers trying to get one over them all the time. The refs are human and therefore bound to make mistakes, and the occasional gaffe is only to be expected. But when it is 2,3 or even 4 major decisions in a match, and this happens match after match after match, and over a period of nearly 2 years, then you have to start thinking that there there is something more to it than mere human error.

I can understand why people are suspicious, however I doubt there can be an EFL / refereeing conspiracy. My views aren't based on any level of respect or trust for either. Just that we live in times where people are falling over one another to 'spill the beans' on social media for any true or untrue snippet of information. It would be impossible to keep the lid on a referees directive to punish a team on the field of play. Just my thoughts. 

[Inverurie Ram]

ex players might make good referees, as they would be aware of all the cheating that goes on to try and 'win' decisions or correctly put, how to con referees, con the paying fans, con football clubs, con themselves and to con the game of football.

Instead we now watch games of football, referreed by people that have probably never played the game, can hardly keep up with the speed of the game and are constantly being hit with the ball as they are in the bloomin way when players are trying to pass the ball..............marvellous!

Yeah let's all watch the same boring big rich (corrupt) teams in the wonderful Sky Sports Premier League on a Sunday night where the away fans can't possibly travel to the game and back without wasting another Monday off work, and enjoy the referee being hit with the ball several times, because he's in the way again..................yeah let's watch another bounce ball..........yeah how much is this tripe costing us................yeah let's wait for the VAR panel, made up of corrupt officials bias towards the home team, that will be wineing and dineing them after the game, give the corrupt advantage to the big rich corrupt home team or whoever Sky Sports want to win the game, the league, the cup etc.

Jumpers for goalposts?..............we would all be better off, watching and playing for our local team down the local park, as we all enjoy the game in it's true loyal beautiful state with the games original rules without an official of any kind anywhere near it.

Simplicity is Genius.

[Inverurie Ram]

Bent referee perhaps?

[Ram-Alf]

12 hours ago, Inverurie Ram said:

Jumpers for goalposts?..............we would all be better off, watching and playing for our local team down the local park, as we all enjoy the game in it's true loyal beautiful state with the games original rules without an official of any kind anywhere near it.

Simplicity is Genius.

Believe me we wouldn't, From kids games to senior local games the cheating is there, Mums and Dads threatening the opposition, The Refferee being constantly abused by Mum and Dad and even little Jonny as he's seen all this on TV, Local Refs are giving up on the game because of the above, Refferees are often attacked by some moron who thinks he's Renaldo or Coutinho or Messi, They don't know the laws of the game, Beered up from the night before then coughing their hearts up 10 minutes into the game as they're ducked.

I went and watched Belper Town a couple of weeks back, The ground is great, A clubhouse to have food and beer, A big screen TV(not Sky)£5 to get in(Senior)the play acting(cheating)is there, The official only looked 20 years old?‍♂️gave a penalty where the attacker clearly dived, As the look on his face confirmed it.

No Inverurie it's all cascaded down to every level, But the day was good ?

[DavesaRam]

19 hours ago, Tyler Durden said:

It's pretty dire all over and not just concentrated in the EFL. Was watching the Chelsea Newcastle game today and how the ref didn't see the shirt getting pulled off the back of the Newcastle player is beyond me. Not once but twice. Clear penalty. 

I often wonder why a team doesn’t get their shirts made in panels, fastened together with velcro. Then any shirt-pulling leaves a complete panel in the hand of the offender. Case closed. Apart from one exception: if the panel of shirt formerly formed part of a Derby County shirt. Then it is simply a case of weak, ineffective velcro!